Guess I'm not welcomed

[The Revolting Man]

How can you distinguish the real from the fake? Didn't the real Messiah warn of fake christs? So he must also give us the tools to discern, correct? Otherwise, what is the purpose of the warning of imitators if we don't have the tools to discern the real from the fake? That would be like throwing us to the wolves with no weapon to defend ourselves.

We have two witnesses - Luke and Matthew - both confirm that the real one is not going to change his perfect instructions. This is confirmed by Peter when he quotes Isaiah (The word of YAH remains firm forever). Conclusion? The few requirements from Acts 15 are a minimum to get into the door. The rest will come through sanctification (being washed clean by the Word of Truth), which can take years upon years.

Does Acts 15 grant authority to overthrow his Word? To create a Jesus according to the image of men, and not according to Truth? He says it himself - his ways are higher than our ways. Just like Heaven is higher than earth. Are his ways higher than our ways?

The Jesus of the world is a Jesus created from the image of men. The reason why so many people are falling for the fake Christs is because there's a lot of truth mixed in with the lies. Mixing lies with truth comes from the devil. Those are his tactics. Some of them are doing it on purpose. For many others I reckon it's simply the case of "Blind leading the blind." But people wouldn't be falling for these deceptions if they were eating his flesh, and actually believe him when he said "It's easier for Earth to pass away than the smallest iota to drop from his Torah."

What are you even talking about? This mish mash of half formed ideas has nothing to do with what we’re talking about.

The topic is what does the council of Jerusalem mean for our relationships with other believers? Is the council literal in its instructions? Are those instructions authoritative? There’s no disputing what those instructions were. Are they binding? Are they authoritative?

 

[The Revolting Man]

Therefore, whoever nullifies one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness far surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

@The Revolting Man

Is this somewhat of what you’re thinking?

The rascal who’s not quite cutting the mustard will still be in the kingdom.

The self righteous Pharisees who smell others’ farts to judge if they’re eating kosher or not are not exactly esteemed either?

No. Why is this so hard? The idea is simple. We can’t excommunicate each other over theology. There is no sin of heresy that we can impose. Yes, there can be deceivers among us, but we can’t go looking for them.

We have to let the tares grow up with the wheat if the tares conform to Acts 15.

And all you need for proof is all of the really stupid ideas Christians have wanted to excommunicate each for over the years. People have tried to excommunicate me because I reject the alleged Hebrew gospel of Matthew; a literal forgery put forth by an open Christ denier trying to disprove Christianity in the Middle Ages.

People can not be trusted with this kind of power.

 

[Mark C]

Then you are contradicting yourself. Either you have the authority to add burdens not listed in Acts 15 or Acts 15 is not authoritative scripture.*

"There are none so blind as those who WILL not see," is not actually in the Bible (but there are precedents.)

You evidently refuse to even acknowledge, much less understand, the concept of a minimum "necessary but not sufficient" condition, or set of conditions. So you deny even the existence of the argument. Which is convenient for you.

It allows you to monotonously accuse others of "adding burdens" and other crimes for merely noticing things in Scripture that you have "eyes, but fail to see." And we have long given up on trying to show you how to "connect the dots;" that is a fool's errand.

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* PS> That is a moronically false dichotomy.

 

[Mark C]

People can not be trusted with this kind of power.

Will irony never cease...

 

[Mark C]

No. Why is this so hard? The idea is simple. We can’t excommunicate each other over theology.

But you can ban them from BF for it!

 

[Mojo]

We can’t excommunicate each other over theology. There is no sin of heresy that we can impose. Yes, there can be deceivers among us, but we can’t go looking for them.

And this is where you lost me. I’m mostly on your side on all this, but I’ll be leaving the argument soon because stuff like this only turns to chaos.

I reserve the right to distinguish who is truly my Christian brother over their theology. I’ve broadened the edges of my tent greatly over the years but only so much. You can only stretch theology so far before it is no longer Christian or biblical.

But I do agree that keeping tabs on one’s ACTIONS and making ourselves the judge and jury as to a person’s fitness for admittance into the kingdom is where I start to disembark. It’s one of the reasons why, though I’ve become much more pronomian over the years, I refuse to join certain movements.

 

[Otto]

It’s one of the reasons why, though I’ve become much more pronomian over the years, I refuse to join certain movements.

Isaiah 42:21
It pleased the LORD for the sake of his righteousness to make his law (torah) great and glorious.

The Messiah didn't just provide atonement with his sacrifice. But through his sacrifice he provided his Word and Sanctification.

Imagine how great and glorious the United States would be if it took the Torah more seriously?

 

[steve]

But I do agree that keeping tabs on one’s ACTIONS and making ourselves the judge and jury as to a person’s fitness for admittance into the kingdom is where I start to disembark.

17Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Can one sharpen iron without a few sparks?

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

17Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Can one sharpen iron without a few sparks?

good point! That's sharp!!

 

[Mark C]

...If they conform to Acts 15 then you have to assume that they’re to there and trust God to deal with them.

I didn’t. They did. It’s right there in the text. Just read it, Acts 15:28 for it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials….

I’m not going out on any crazy limbs here. Those are the literal words of the text.

What - just ONE solitary reference?
Does consistency matter at all?

Somebody, anybody, find me one other scripture to base this supposed authority...

 

[Heavens Declare]

"There are none so blind as those who WILL not see," is not actually in the Bible (but there are precedents.)

You evidently refuse to even acknowledge, much less understand, the concept of a minimum "necessary but not sufficient" condition, or set of conditions. So you deny even the existence of the argument. Which is convenient for you.

It allows you to monotonously accuse others of "adding burdens" and other crimes for merely noticing things in Scripture that you have "eyes, but fail to see." And we have long given up on trying to show you how to "connect the dots;" that is a fool's errand.

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* PS> That is a moronically false dichotomy.

I thought you said that you rested your case!

 

[Mark C]

I did. The case was made.

 

[Mojo]

17Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Can one sharpen iron without a few sparks?

I’m not sure. I’ve never sharpened an Israelite sword with another sword before.

I have sharpened knives on a stone, though. A great method is to use oil, maybe water, as a lubricant. It’s a gentle process that requires technique and skill to get the right angles…finesse. If I get sparks while sharpening on a stone, I’ve really done something wrong.

 

[steve]

I’m not sure. I’ve never sharpened an Israelite sword with another sword before.

I have sharpened knives on a stone, though. A great method is to use oil, maybe water, as a lubricant. It’s a gentle process that requires technique and skill to get the right angles…finesse. If I get sparks while sharpening on a stone, I’ve really done something wrong.

That’s not iron sharpening iron though. Words mean things.
Think blacksmithing, when a lump of metal is shaped into a sword, spearhead, arrowhead, knife, etc.

 

[Mojo]

That’s not iron sharpening iron though. Words mean things.
Think blacksmithing, when a lump of metal is shaped into a sword, spearhead, arrowhead, knife, etc.

I’m not disagreeing. I just have no personal reference, nor do I know the full Hebrew implications of “sharpen”. Is it referring to smithing?

 

[steve]

I’m not disagreeing. I just have no personal reference, nor do I know the full Hebrew implications of “sharpen”. Is it referring to smithing?

It hasn’t mattered to me exactly how the words are parsed.
When I see iron on iron, I am going to assume that it isn’t anything peaceful until someone proves otherwise.
I’ll be happy to learn something new, but that will be up to someone who has a different opinion to show proof for their position.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

But I do agree that keeping tabs on one’s ACTIONS and making ourselves the judge and jury as to a person’s fitness for admittance into the kingdom is where I start to disembark. It’s one of the reasons why, though I’ve become much more pronomian over the years, I refuse to join certain movements.

Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

There is only one that will be able to judge in the end. That said, we are instructed to judge within the body. If we see wanton sin, we are to go to them and sort it out. This cannot be permitted to go unaddressed. If wanton sin is ignored, the body begins to believe that God will also ignore it.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


This to show that indeed we are called to judge in a righteous way...

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

As for a "brother" declaring themselves to be a brother and now we all need to accept that on face value.... Maybe not.

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

And I cite above, we are called to judge within the body...

 

[Mojo]

Amen and amen @Man_in_the_Middle. It’s scripture and I don’t disagree with any of it.

But, the aspect of discipline and order in an organized body to preserve its integrity and spiritual health is not the same as me judging their soul. That’s the judge and jury I’m talking about.

If I encounter someone, even a close family member who professes to know our Savior, yet is lax in his obedience, or even perhaps falls into a life or lifestyle that is not pleasing, I’m not equipped to make the judgment on his attachment to eternal salvation. All of the above still applies. I will approach him, counsel him and pray for him to repent and continue in the ways of the faith, but I don’t get to make the death certificate. That’s not in my job description.

 

[Mojo]

It hasn’t mattered to me exactly how the words are parsed.
When I see iron on iron, I am going to assume that it isn’t anything peaceful until someone proves otherwise.
I’ll be happy to learn something new, but that will be up to someone who has a different opinion to show proof for their position.

I’ve got nothing.

I don’t know if there is anything new. It’s just a common phrase from scripture that I want to make sure is being used properly. It could be an idiom for something we are misinterpreting.