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Hello from North Carolina

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Malik

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Hello everyone, I have enjoyed reading some of these posts. I wanted to introduce myself. I know this is a Christian website however I am an American convert to Islam. Our religions have much in common in that we both believe in Jesus as the Messiah and that he is going to return to fight the Anti-Christ. We just do not accept him as God and we hold to a very strict belief in monotheism. We also of course believe in polygamy, however we are restricted to four wives and have very specific and strict rules about how the wives are treated.

I am married and planning to take another wife soon if God wills. Anyway, nice to meet you all and its great to know that there are Christians in this country that support Godly marriage.
 
Welcome
 
Hello from North Central North Carolina. Right up on the NC/VA border. Welcome
Nice. We have a homestead in the piedmont. However we have some land up in stokes county, near you that we are planting some fruit trees on.
 
What do you think about the evidence that Muhamed never existed, or rather the appalling lack of evidence for his existence, the lack of evidence for the city of Mecca in 7th century AD, and the nonexistence of the Quran until well over 100 years after Muhammed was purportedly alive? What do you think about the existence of 30 different versions of the Quran?
 
We know more about the Prophet Muhammad than any other modern or pre-modern figure. Any educated Muslim would laugh at the idea that he didn’t exist. There is more poof he existed than George Washington or Julius Caesar.

1. The Isnad: The "Pedigree" of Information

The backbone of Islamic history is the isnad (chain of narration). Early Muslims realized that for a report to be reliable, you couldn't just say, "The Prophet said..." You had to prove how that information reached you.

An isnad looks like this: Person A heard from Person B, who heard from Person C, who heard from a Companion, who saw the Prophet do X.

By requiring a "receipt" for every single statement, scholars created a system where information was tethered to specific individuals rather than appearing as anonymous folklore.

2. Ilm al-Rijal: The "Science of Men"

To ensure the isnad wasn't just a list of names, scholars developed Ilm al-Rijal (Biographical Evaluation). This was essentially history’s first massive peer-review system.

Scholars traveled thousands of miles to interview narrators or those who knew them. They compiled biographical dictionaries that categorized thousands of individuals based on:

  • Integrity (‘Adalah): Did the person lie? Did they have a hidden agenda?
  • Memory (Dabt): Was the person known for being forgetful? Did they take notes?
  • Chronology: Did Person A actually live at the same time and in the same city as Person B? If not, the chain was broken.
If a narrator was caught in a single lie—even if it had nothing to do with religion—their narrations were often discarded. This resulted in a database of tens of thousands of biographies, documenting the lives of common people who lived over a millennium ago.

3. The Sheer Scale of Documentation

The scale of this endeavor is difficult to overstate. It’s not just one book; it’s a vast library of cross-referenced data.

  • The Filtration Process: Imam al-Bukhari, one of the most famous collectors, spent 16 years reviewing over 600,000 narrations. Out of those, he only selected roughly 7,500 (including repetitions) that met his highest standards of authenticity.
  • The "Big Six": There are six major collections (Al-Kutub al-Sittah) that form the core of Sunni tradition, but dozens of other massive collections exist (like the Musnad of Ahmad ibn Hanbal, which contains over 27,000 reports of eye witness testimony).
  • Granularity: Because of this volume, we have records of the Prophet’s physical appearance, his favorite foods, his sense of humor, his interactions with children, and his conduct during war and peace.
Note: This system was so rigorous that it essentially birthed the modern historical method of source criticism. Without the isnad, much of what we consider "history" from that era would be indistinguishable from legend.

Why This Matters

For other historical giants (like Alexander the Great or even Jesus), the primary sources often date decades or even centuries after their deaths. In the case of Muhammad, the documentation began with his immediate companions and was systematized within the first two centuries of Islam, backed by a "paper trail" of narrators.
 
There are not 30 versions of the Quran. The Quran was reveled in multiple ahruf (letters) as shown in early hadith. Also several recitational traditions with chains back the prophet’s time exist. This is a very complex topic but its actually a proof of the Qurans preservation.

The preservation of the Quran is often described as a "living" miracle, primarily because it doesn't rely solely on ink and paper. Instead, it relies on a rigorous, unbroken system of oral transmission known as the Isnad (chain) and the Ijazah (certification).

Here is a breakdown of how this system works and why it’s considered a foolproof method of preservation.

1. The Mechanism: The Chain of Transmission (Isnad)

Think of an Isnad as a spiritual and academic "genealogy." When a student memorizes the Quran today, they aren't just learning from a book; they are learning from a teacher who learned from a teacher, stretching back 1,400 years.

  • Talaqqi (Face-to-Face Learning): You cannot master the Quran via a podcast. It requires sitting with a master to learn the precise articulation of letters (Makharij) and the rules of recitation (Tajweed).
  • The Sanad: Once a student memorizes the entire Quran with perfect pronunciation, the teacher grants them a Sanad. This document lists every single person in the "link" from the teacher all the way back to the Prophet Muhammad.


2. The Verification: The Ijazah System

An Ijazah is more than a diploma; it is a legal license to teach. It acts as a quality control mechanism.

How it prevents errors:

  • Active Correction: During the process, the teacher listens to every single syllable. If a student misses a tiny nasal sound or shortens a vowel by a fraction of a second, they are corrected instantly.
  • Standardization: Because every teacher in the chain had to pass the same rigorous test, the "output" (the recitation) remains identical across generations.


3. How This Proves Preservation


Critics often point to the "Telephone Game" to suggest that oral information degrades over time. However, the Quranic system is designed to be the mathematical inverse of the telephone game.

A. Mutawatir (Massive Concurrency)

The Quran was not passed down by one person to one person. It was passed down by thousands to thousands.

  • In logic and Islamic science, this is called Tawatur.
  • It is statistically impossible for thousands of people in different parts of the world (who have never met) to all "accidentally" make the exact same mistake in the exact same verse at the same time.
B. Global Cross-Referencing

If you took a Hafiz (memorizer) from a village in Nigeria, one from Indonesia, and one from Norway, and asked them to recite Chapter 18, they would recite it identically, letter for letter, pause for pause.

This global uniformity, despite the absence of a central "Vatican-style" authority for most of history, proves the source material has remained unchanged.

C. The Written vs. Oral Feedback Loop

The written Quran (the Mushaf) and the oral Quran act as checks and balances for each other.

  • If a printing error occurs in a book, a Hafiz will catch it by ear.
  • If a reciter makes a slip of the tongue, the written text (and the rest of the congregation) corrects them.
 
I'm sure gratified to see that we can't talk about the Torah of YHVH openly here, but he Quran/Koran or whatever is fine. That won't drive anyone away...
 
We know more about the Prophet Muhammad than any other modern or pre-modern figure. Any educated Muslim would laugh at the idea that he didn’t exist. There is more poof he existed than George Washington or Julius Caesar.

1. The Isnad: The "Pedigree" of Information

The backbone of Islamic history is the isnad (chain of narration). Early Muslims realized that for a report to be reliable, you couldn't just say, "The Prophet said..." You had to prove how that information reached you.

An isnad looks like this: Person A heard from Person B, who heard from Person C, who heard from a Companion, who saw the Prophet do X.

By requiring a "receipt" for every single statement, scholars created a system where information was tethered to specific individuals rather than appearing as anonymous folklore.

2. Ilm al-Rijal: The "Science of Men"

To ensure the isnad wasn't just a list of names, scholars developed Ilm al-Rijal (Biographical Evaluation). This was essentially history’s first massive peer-review system.

Scholars traveled thousands of miles to interview narrators or those who knew them. They compiled biographical dictionaries that categorized thousands of individuals based on:

  • Integrity (‘Adalah): Did the person lie? Did they have a hidden agenda?
  • Memory (Dabt): Was the person known for being forgetful? Did they take notes?
  • Chronology: Did Person A actually live at the same time and in the same city as Person B? If not, the chain was broken.
If a narrator was caught in a single lie—even if it had nothing to do with religion—their narrations were often discarded. This resulted in a database of tens of thousands of biographies, documenting the lives of common people who lived over a millennium ago.

3. The Sheer Scale of Documentation

The scale of this endeavor is difficult to overstate. It’s not just one book; it’s a vast library of cross-referenced data.

  • The Filtration Process: Imam al-Bukhari, one of the most famous collectors, spent 16 years reviewing over 600,000 narrations. Out of those, he only selected roughly 7,500 (including repetitions) that met his highest standards of authenticity.
  • The "Big Six": There are six major collections (Al-Kutub al-Sittah) that form the core of Sunni tradition, but dozens of other massive collections exist (like the Musnad of Ahmad ibn Hanbal, which contains over 27,000 reports of eye witness testimony).
  • Granularity: Because of this volume, we have records of the Prophet’s physical appearance, his favorite foods, his sense of humor, his interactions with children, and his conduct during war and peace.
Note: This system was so rigorous that it essentially birthed the modern historical method of source criticism. Without the isnad, much of what we consider "history" from that era would be indistinguishable from legend.

Why This Matters

For other historical giants (like Alexander the Great or even Jesus), the primary sources often date decades or even centuries after their deaths. In the case of Muhammad, the documentation began with his immediate companions and was systematized within the first two centuries of Islam, backed by a "paper trail" of narrators.
Although most here at BF stand on opposite sides of the fence to you concerning Muhammad and the Quran, I'm grateful your response to the questions is polite and directed to answering the questions from @Heavens Declare. I hope we can all continue to keep the exchanges polite and directed to the subject at hand, and not descend to personal attacks. Cheers
 
There are not 30 versions of the Quran. The Quran was reveled in multiple ahruf (letters) as shown in early hadith. Also several recitational traditions with chains back the prophet’s time exist. This is a very complex topic but its actually a proof of the Qurans preservation.

The preservation of the Quran is often described as a "living" miracle, primarily because it doesn't rely solely on ink and paper. Instead, it relies on a rigorous, unbroken system of oral transmission known as the Isnad (chain) and the Ijazah (certification).

Here is a breakdown of how this system works and why it’s considered a foolproof method of preservation.

1. The Mechanism: The Chain of Transmission (Isnad)

Think of an Isnad as a spiritual and academic "genealogy." When a student memorizes the Quran today, they aren't just learning from a book; they are learning from a teacher who learned from a teacher, stretching back 1,400 years.

  • Talaqqi (Face-to-Face Learning): You cannot master the Quran via a podcast. It requires sitting with a master to learn the precise articulation of letters (Makharij) and the rules of recitation (Tajweed).
  • The Sanad: Once a student memorizes the entire Quran with perfect pronunciation, the teacher grants them a Sanad. This document lists every single person in the "link" from the teacher all the way back to the Prophet Muhammad.


2. The Verification: The Ijazah System

An Ijazah is more than a diploma; it is a legal license to teach. It acts as a quality control mechanism.

How it prevents errors:

  • Active Correction: During the process, the teacher listens to every single syllable. If a student misses a tiny nasal sound or shortens a vowel by a fraction of a second, they are corrected instantly.
  • Standardization: Because every teacher in the chain had to pass the same rigorous test, the "output" (the recitation) remains identical across generations.


3. How This Proves Preservation


Critics often point to the "Telephone Game" to suggest that oral information degrades over time. However, the Quranic system is designed to be the mathematical inverse of the telephone game.

A. Mutawatir (Massive Concurrency)

The Quran was not passed down by one person to one person. It was passed down by thousands to thousands.

  • In logic and Islamic science, this is called Tawatur.
  • It is statistically impossible for thousands of people in different parts of the world (who have never met) to all "accidentally" make the exact same mistake in the exact same verse at the same time.
B. Global Cross-Referencing

If you took a Hafiz (memorizer) from a village in Nigeria, one from Indonesia, and one from Norway, and asked them to recite Chapter 18, they would recite it identically, letter for letter, pause for pause.

This global uniformity, despite the absence of a central "Vatican-style" authority for most of history, proves the source material has remained unchanged.

C. The Written vs. Oral Feedback Loop

The written Quran (the Mushaf) and the oral Quran act as checks and balances for each other.

  • If a printing error occurs in a book, a Hafiz will catch it by ear.
  • If a reciter makes a slip of the tongue, the written text (and the rest of the congregation) corrects them.
Hey Malik, I need to point out that this is an expressly Christian forum and we’re not going to descend into a Dawah debate. You are welcome to fellowship here but you are not welcome to proselytize. All of the claims you have made in these posts are explicitly rejected as inaccurate at best. At worst we consider them complete fabrications.

Again, this isn’t open for debate. We are firmly and staunchly Christians and we have examined the claims of Islam and have rejected them as false. If you can’t accept that then we thank you for your interest in our forum but you wouldn’t be a good fit here.
 
Once again, yo-yo welcome to talk about the Torah. You just can’t say that anyone has to keep it.
Never have, not once. All I have ever done is quote Scripture.

You don't HAVE to believe in Him, or read Scripture, or say any prayer, or anything else. You have a CHOICE,
 
Never have, not once. All I have ever done is quote Scripture.

You don't HAVE to believe in Him, or read Scripture, or say any prayer, or anything else. You have a CHOICE,
Ahh... But if you quote scripture...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

It is not taken as a quotation but as if you have said that adulterers and thieves and drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God. And that they MUST stop thieving and adultering and being drunkards....

Quoting scripture is RADICAL!
 
Oh, and there are TONS of others:

"IF you love Me, keep My commands." There's an implied question there that cannot be voiced, evidently.

How about the two (plus) sets of "blessings and cursings." (Leviticus, and Deuteronomy) It's clear - there are blessings for obedience, cursing otherwise. Can we admit that? Evidently, as long as you don't even suggest that a choice has consequences. Or that He does.

And don't you DARE mention that warning, right from Him, about a "narrow path," and - horrors - "few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13-14) But the rest of that chapter is even worse...
 
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