He is allowed to do so in a forum where that topic has not been declared off limits. How hard is that for you to understand? It is just as right as it is for me to argue against his beliefs which go against mine. I cannot do so here though, without violating the rules that have been set forth in this forum. We already had this debate. There is no more to discuss!
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Guess I'm not welcomed
- Thread starter EWP
- Start date
You may not think so, but the Staff here at Biblical Families does, and that is what matters. When you and Mark have your own forum, you can argue and debate to your hearts content, and we will even direct others over to your forum, or you can do so yourself. That TO ship has sailed, and the mature members among us, even the TO adherents have accepted this. It is time you and Mark do the same!
EDIT: Mind you, we will not allow Mark to post links to his forum for every topic that comes along, but if someone is curious and wants that perspective, we will let them know where to turn.
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I think this is the crux of the issue. Petulant tantrums are reserved for youth and immaturity.
Even our Lord told his followers: “And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town…so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.
The proverbial horse has already been beaten to a pulp.
OK, fine.
No, WRONG, again...
...the text is explicit, and gives the REASONING, too. It's why they all came to agreement! The letter outlines the "necessary and sufficient" conditions to help those former-pagans ('gentiles') be ready to study and learn more...
BECAUSE, "Moses [the Torah, those five Books] is taught in every city in every synagogue on every Sabbath."
It's not at all hard to see.
PS> I like to say, the idea is 'clean 'em up enough to be able to get in the door. Then they'll be able to learn the rest.'
Or:
There has to be a bare minimum, but don’t overwhelm them with the whole kit and kaboodle immediately.
“I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,”
Any person who has ever taught a Sunday school class, raised a few kids, or been on a job site will be able to attest that no person is exactly the same in physical or cognitive development. The same is true of spiritual development. Discussions of the laws and instructions of God need to be approached differently for all. Some will be able to eat the meat much sooner than others. Some may never get to that point.
Others may understand, but choose not to take that leap for various reasons (namely differing interpretations of scripture).
Differences in Soteriology can debate the efficacious aspects of Torah as well. I choose to hold to the position that the relationship with our Father might be strained through disobedience, but not severed. Abraham believed…that was his righteousness.
Any person who has ever taught a Sunday school class, raised a few kids, or been on a job site will be able to attest that no person is exactly the same in physical or cognitive development. The same is true of spiritual development. Discussions of the laws and instructions of God need to be approached differently for all. Some will be able to eat the meat much sooner than others. Some may never get to that point.
Others may understand, but choose not to take that leap for various reasons (namely differing interpretations of scripture).
Differences in Soteriology can debate the efficacious aspects of Torah as well. I choose to hold to the position that the relationship with our Father might be strained through disobedience, but not severed. Abraham believed…that was his righteousness.
Yeah, and that especially includes not telling them they have to carve on their Willie...
Man_in_the_Middle
Seasoned Member
Hebrews chapter 11 tells how by Faith Abraham and a whole list of forefathers are recalled. By Faith is demonstrated all throughout that chapter...
Good read!
The faith led to the righteous deeds, which in the case of Abraham, occured (faith that resulted in him being called righteous, that is) before Isaac was even born.
Man_in_the_Middle
Seasoned Member
I agree. Faith leads to righteous deeds. Amein!
Yes, I understand. James is my favorite book possibly of all of scripture. It’s heavily tilted towards working out our faith. I love works of righteousness. No argument there. But, salvific righteousness is not transacted by the works of the law. Only a great Savior can bestow his favor on us. The thief on the cross had only one plea and could never act out anything other than words, expressing what was sincerely on his heart. Yet, he is in paradise with his Lord.
Man_in_the_Middle
Seasoned Member
yep. It is all a heart issue. Is your heart truly with him? Do you truly believe in him? Do you put your faith in him?
Yes! Awesome! If all that is true, then you will begin to do what he wants you to do. Thief on the cross? Heart was right. If he had been released in that moment, would he have walked out his belief? Yes! Because he truly believed and had faith.
Faith and belief come first. Without it, all is for naught...
I think that there is a misconception, misunderstanding perhaps of what TO people (generally) believe. It is not that you have to know all of the instructions and have already obeyed them all, or never violated any instructions. It is not even that you never do anything wrong that you know is wrong. It is really all a heart issue. Do you love him enough to obey and when you don't live up to that, are you repentant and remorseful? Do you care what he says?
I want my heart to be right with him and when I sin, I regret it and repent and try not to again. Is it that simple? Yes and no. I find that the things I struggle with in sin are things that I continue to struggle with. Although, the struggle is less difficult the more I realign my thinking to his.
I am certain that there are things that I am not even aware of that are sin that I have done or failed to do etc. So, I continue to trust in his plan of redemption.
Except tot says that no one can may ANY OTHER BURDENS THAN THESE NECESSARY THINGS and if we do those simple things YOU EIL DO WELL. This is the inspired teaching of the Holy Spirit.
If you do four simple things, you will do well. And no one can add any other burdens to you. That’s not to say that there is nothing further to the faith, it’s to say that there is nothing else that any of us can impose on any other believer.
So far we’re within the bounds of the forum for two reasons; the simple requirements include sexual purity, clearly within the bounds of our mandate. The second reason is because I’m not claiming that you should or should not do anything or that anyone else should.
But let’s stay focused. How can you justify adding any burdens to other believers in light or Acts 15? The Holy Spirit specifically forbids it. No one, not even Mark, can add any other burdens than the four necessary things that if you do, you will do well?
I mostly agree, but you’ve still not addressed food.
It seems to me to be pretty important for this first Council. It’s not full dietary laws, but they did bring it up under inspiration, as you said.
Why do Christians no longer take foods seriously?
Mark is not "adding burdens." Mark is simply reading what our Messiah Wrote, and told us, "IF you love Me, keep My commands." Yahushua already said (Mark 7, Matthew 23, etc) that it was the "lawmakers" (Pharisees, etc) who were "adding burdens." Burdens that were, as He said, and prohibited, "additions to" what was already Written.
No one is trying I have not sought to "impose" anything on any 'believer,' and never have.
Was Paul doing so when he said, under that same inspiration, "study, to show yourself approved?" And pointed out that as "milk drinkers" - many, if not most - were not ready for meat? Did he not expect that, if they took that advice, they eventually would be?
It STARTS with those four "minimum necessary conditions," to get in the door, and hear His Instruction read, as He inspired and they ALL agreed, 'in every synagogue, in every city, on every Sabbath.' Then, they will "do well." And learn.
Was Paul doing so when he said, under that same inspiration, "study, to show yourself approved?" And pointed out that as "milk drinkers" - many, if not most - were not ready for meat? Did he not expect that, if they took that advice, they eventually would be?
This part is true, but obviously not complete, because it is demonstrably only a beginning, (Otherwise, you'd just stay put, and 'doing well' is an action verb.)
It STARTS with those four "minimum necessary conditions," to get in the door, and hear His Instruction read, as He inspired and they ALL agreed, 'in every synagogue, in every city, on every Sabbath.' Then, they will "do well." And learn.
At the ever-present threat of deletion, I will hazard a VERY cautious answer.
They ALL knew what was "food," and what was not. Notice, five chapters earlier, Kefa/Peter, after that misunderstood dream (because he TELLS us, in v. 28, exactly what the meaning was!) says he has NEVER eaten anything 'unclean.' He walked with the Messiah! Didn't he get the memo?
I contend that they dealt with the issue about which there was current CONTENTION, whether what actually WAS FOOD was still able to be eaten, or was 'contaminated,' after being, for example, 'offered to idols.' Unlike many today, who would not have been raised with a "Biblical worldview" as in that culture, it would not have occurred to them that they needed to outline all of the obvious. (Note, for example, they said merely 'abstain from' "sexual immorality" - pick 'yer translation - but did not feel the need to enumerate a chapter of instruction about what that meant. It was "incorporated by reference" as might be said later. It did NOT mean that they were saying any of a number of things they likewise knew were forbidden were no longer so, OR VICE-VERSA. After all, it did not occur to them to address polygyny, either.)
And, finally, I will suggest that if they had tried to bring pork chops for a pot luck after the reading, they would have been given some more instruction as to what NOT to bring next time.
I'm sure reasons vary. For us knowing He said when He sent them out to "Eat what is set before you" gives us a different perspective of the importance of it. Then too, this passage from Matthew 15:10 -20
10And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? 13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable. 16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
We avoid pork as in don't raise or purchase it, but if we are eating at someone else's place or miss it at a potluck, we don't stress about it or throw it away.
I find the man made chemicals, herbicides, pesticides, and ultra refined (so called) foods far more dangerous to health and well being.
Very largely agreed, @Joleneakamama, except for one little word in that last line, "far." 
I can't tell you why, here, but I can point to one line of Scripture that informs my 'concern':
Deuteronomy 28:60, followed in context by v. 61.
I think, personally, that He is talking, at least in part, about immune system function.
I can't tell you why, here, but I can point to one line of Scripture that informs my 'concern':
Deuteronomy 28:60, followed in context by v. 61.
I think, personally, that He is talking, at least in part, about immune system function.
Having recently read book I found some advice disturbing and dangerous. Nod and agree. C'mon.
For smaller things no correcting people can be good idea. Some conflicts are better avoided or not starting them is goid idea.
But some battles are worth being fought om.
Almost all of us here who have more than one wife would fight for all of 'em.
And the principles that led us to them.