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Are you married, or are you committing adultery?
- Thread starter Anthony Clark
- Start date
Her father does not have a veto power. We can do the whole dance in this do you want but I’m just responding for people who see this in the future; the father does not have a veto power in this situation.
If he can prevent the man from taking physical possession of the young woman then the husband is still liable for the bride price even though he didn’t get the bride.
But if the father can’t prevent possession he doesn’t have some spiritual power to nullify the one flesh. The man and woman are still bound.
What would be the difference between rape and seduction, in your view of sex equals marriage?
Man_in_the_Middle
Seasoned Member
You know Otto, there will still be people who will not understand the plain reading of theses scriptures... Thanks for outlining them though.
She is under her fathers headship and even sex with a man does not make that man her husband automatically.
Exo 22:16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
Exo 22:17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.
now the phrase, "he shall endow" is actually two words. mâhar and mâhar again.
H4117
maw-har'
A primitive root (perhaps rather the same as H4116 through the idea of readiness in assent); to bargain (for a wife), that is, to wed: - endow, X surely.
Endow is to give money for. That is where the word Endowment comes from.
Here, in this situation, you have a man who is commanded to bargain for this girl to be his wife. This commandment puts him in a nearly impossible negotiating position as the father knows that he is commanded to negotiate for his daughter. So, the father could use this to his own advantage and ask 10X the normal price just because he could. God, in his wisdom saw this issue and said that if they cannot come to an agreement, then the man will simply pay the normal bride price and not get the girl.
That protects the fathers interest as his daughter may have had another suitor who was willing and able to pay 10X the bride price.
This protects the man as his max outlay is capped.
This protects the girl as her father is still able to decide who would be the best husband for his daughter.
Praise Yah for his wisdom...
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Zec vs the Written Word again. (Deut. 22, and Numbers 30. It requires reading for comprehension.)
Let's not. Any actual argument would be locked, then deleted, after you are shown - again - to be wrong.
So, let's cut to the chase, and "let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter...fear Elohim, and KEEP His commandments."
The father has EXPLICIT Authority to 'nullify' her (his daughters' vows.) He does not have the ability to turn back time, or restore her broken hymen. Her virginity is lost, period. No doubt (even if You-Know-What now lies about it) harm has been done.
Today, she might run off. More likely, become a welfare queen, and keep sucking at the public trough in that case.
But - if that father nullifies her vow - she is NOT 'married.' And YHVH, Himself, says He will "forgive her." Who are you to say otherwise?
It’s a difficult question and I don’t have a satisfactory answer. Protect your women.
Have the debate, you’re not going to prove me wrong. No one has yet. And no thread about this topic has ever been locked.
Numbers 30 doesn’t work here because it also says that husbands can nullify their wives vows. If it was about marriage then you would be saying that married women can get married.
But vows have nothing to do with marriage, never had, never will. Numbers 30 has nothing to do with marriage.
He just did.
You refusing to acknowledge the validity of their argument doesn’t prove you’re correct either.
He did not and if you think so then you don’t understand the debate. But you don’t really think so. You can’t deny that Numbers 30 has nothing to do with marriage whatsoever and you can’t deny that the language in the verse about seduction is very specific. It carries no spiritual weight and is only about the bride price.
I’m sorry, I have 8 daughters. I would love to be endowed with some extra authority and control, but you can’t base it in scripture so it doesn’t exist. Seeking a father’s blessing is best practices, but it’s not required.
What validity? There’s no argument here. The passage isn’t even about a father’s authority, it’s about the bride price. Even if the passage says what they claim it says, and it doesn’t, you still can’t build a command on it. It’s not even about authority.
Tally
New Member
There are two different types of marriages, we have the marriages of they that is of the world and also the marriages of the righteous. Only the righteous children of God Marriages is honored by God, marriage of the world (the wicked and sinners) will not be honored by God, neither are they bound by God's marriage law because they are of the world and have no regard for God in any of their doings, because they serve the God of the world satan(Corinthians 4:3-4). Only those who are joined together in the will of God is bound by God's marriage law in which is sealed by sex. If God had honored marriage just based on two persons having sex, then he would have to honore gay marriages also. Mathew 19:6 say what therefore 'GOD' hath joined together, let no man put asunder.
It did not say what therefore 'is' joined together let no man put asunder.
There it is! Even the argument doesn't exist with Zec's approval.
He thus "always wins" by default. Maybe that has something to do with why BF has gotten so quiet.
I hear what you’re saying brother, but I also think about Paul’s adminition to the new believers. If they convert, and they have an unbelieving spouse, they should remain married, as God will honor that marriage, and not leave it.
So, it’s a one sided coin? A one colored Rubics cube?
Ok.
Eh, not so fast. That analogy applies to more than just Zec.That's a GREAT analogy, @Mojo. Trying to argue with Zec is like playing with a one-colored Rubik's cube. He wins before you even move a square...
It gets boring fast.
Man_in_the_Middle
Seasoned Member
I agree. We must all give space to others to voice their understandings. It is hard to discuss anything if we don't allow others the space to explain their current understandings without chewing them out for it.
Even in school, a student may have a fully incoherent view of a topic and it is still a good thing to understand what they believe before moving forward. That is why they take pre-tests. It establishes their current understanding. From there, one can begin to sort out the confusion....
Showing a little civility goes a LONG way!!!!
A big part of the problem, honestly, is that some will demean others for even TRYING to explain those understandings, without even allowing discussion. And, as we've seen, accuse them of trying to force them, or "add burdens," of just being mean, for just suggesting there is another way to look at it.
A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.