Are you married, or are you committing adultery?

[Mark C]

And, finally, just to nail the Obvious, to those with 'eyes to see,' anyway:

So if we count every marriage as a covenant we can claim that every marriage requires a covenant?

Nah - just count the ones where YHVH gives you an entire story to make the point, or at least where you see "offer and acceptance," to use the Common Law term that results from His Word.

 

[Tally]

I’m going to need chapter and verse for this one.

Ronans 7:6 (But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.) Jesus Christ died to set us free all bondage of the laws in the old testament, Galatians 3:13 (Christ hath redeem us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us we can't do the will of God if we are bound to the will of our parents or any other thing in this world. If we are adults living under our parents roof and God say go but our parents say stay, if God say yes but our parents say no, who should we obey if we are bound by the will of our parents, 1 Corinthians 7:21-23 (Art thou called being a servant? Care not for it: But if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: Likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men). We were made free by Christ, and has the free rights to exercise that freedom when ever we chose, we can not serve the will of our parents and God at the same time, Mathew 6:24 ( No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other, Ye cannot serve God and mammon) No man has authority over any adult, except for the husband having authority over his wife.

 

[Tally]

So anyone we’re told to obey we belong to?

Yes, but only if the command comes from God.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

repeating

Ronans 7:6 (But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.) Jesus Christ died to set us free all bondage of the laws in the old testament, Galatians 3:13 (Christ hath redeem us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us we can't do the will of God if we are bound to the will of our parents or any other thing in this world. If we are adults living under our parents roof and God say go but our parents say stay, if God say yes but our parents say no, who should we obey if we are bound by the will of our parents, 1 Corinthians 7:21-23 (Art thou called being a servant? Care not for it: But if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: Likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men). We were made free by Christ, and has the free rights to exercise that freedom when ever we chose, we can not serve the will of our parents and God at the same time, Mathew 6:24 ( No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other, Ye cannot serve God and mammon) No man has authority over any adult, except for the husband having authority over his wife.

biblically, what is the age of an adult?

I see the age given for a man but I do not see the age given for a woman.

What is your understanding and basis for it?

 

[Tally]

repeating

biblically, what is the age of an adult?

I see the age given for a man but I do not see the age given for a woman.

What is your understanding and basis for it?

I understand that from a female first see their period, it marks the beginning of their adult hood, this takes place on average about the age of twelve, 1 Corinthians 7:36 ( But if a man thinks that he behaveth himself uncomely towards his virgin, if she pass the FLOWER OF HER AGE, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.) Flowers represent fruits, if a seed from a flower tree is planted, when the tree grows and bring forth flowers, the flowers is the fruit of the tree, or when a seed from a fruit bearing tree is grown up and bud flowers, within the flowers is the fruit that symbolizes that it is now a full grown tree. Same as for when a female first see their period, which symbolizes a flower and the fruit of the womb, but in some cases some tree bud flower and cast them down not bringing forth any fruits do to premature budings.

 

[Otto]

Ronans 7:6 (But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.)

Romans chapter 7 isn't referring to the entirety of God's law. It's referring specifically to the marriage law.

Romans 7:1-2
1 Now, dear brothers and sisters—you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only while a person is living? 2 For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her.

The point Paul was making was that the divorced and scattered lost sheep of Israel - who assimilated among the gentiles - can now return to the Most High through the death and resurrection of Messiah.

-----------------------------

If the law has been nullified on the cross then the 10 commandments are thrown out the door. What the Roman judge did with Yahoshua the Messiah was not sin. He is guiltless. But the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25) calls out his sin - he was swayed by the crowd - and allowed the accusers to judge the accused:

Exodus 23:2
When you are called to testify in a dispute, do not be swayed by the crowd to twist justice.

The pharisees' committed no sin when they beared false witness:

Exodus 20:16
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Kidnapping is no longer sin - even though the law says it carries a death sentence:

Exodus 21:16
Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

Murderers walk free:

Numbers 35:30
Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

I follow the true Messiah and not a lawless counterfeit:

Luke 11:28
But He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

There was no NT when he said that. At that time when he said that - there was only the Torah, the Writings, and the Prophets. “The things nailed to the cross.” A contradiction - don’t you think?

 

[Otto]

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

James:
Faith without works is DEAD.

Revelation 14:12
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

The standard for judgment did not change between the old and new. If it did - then according to the Creator’s own law - it would be an abomination - an unequal measure.

You can find examples of sinners in the Old Testament receiving grace and mercy. Because they repented. He is the same yesterday today and tomorrow:

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Ofc - when he walked in the flesh - as recorded in the four gospels - he remained true to his Word - because he is the Word made flesh.

What changed was how atonement is done. He deserves all the glory and praise and exaltation - because he is the Creator - miracle worker - peace giver - and loves to bless those that love him and walk in his ways. But how atonement is done doesn’t change the standard of judgment:

Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.

2 Peter 2:20-22
If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

[Otto]

if she pass the FLOWER OF HER AGE,

When a fruit is growing on a tree - is it not best to wait till it finishes growing before taking a bite? This concept is found throughout the Bible. Not just with marriage with a woman - but also with the harvest - and even dealing with sin (Genesis 15:16 + Parable of the Weeds).

There’s no specific age for women because not all women finish their physical growth at the same age. However, by the age of 18 the majority of women are through with their growth - and if you’re in the United States that tends to be the legal age for marriage between a man and a woman. Going under 18 - at least in the United States - can get you in trouble.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Yes, but only if the command comes from God.

That has some uncomfortable implications for our relationships with government officials and even church elders and deacons.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

I understand that from a female first see their period, it marks the beginning of their adult hood, this takes place on average about the age of twelve,

No man has authority over any adult, except for the husband having authority over his wife.

Think about these two statements you made...

You are agreeing with others here that a father does not have authority over his daughter and her choice in men once she is an adult.
Now you are also saying that she is an adult as early as 12 years old if this is when her period begins.

Children that has become adults and are living under their parents or any other persons roof, single or married, is subject to obey the laws that govern the household set by the head of the household, but they are free to leave from under that household at anytime, and once they leave from under that household, then they are also free from the law that governs that household.

The day after her period begins, she can mentally make sound decisions about what man would make a good husband for her AND act on it?? A 12 year old?

Surely after seeing it laid out like this, you would not still believe this. Yes?? No??

Her father would have a far better handle on her best husband than she would.... And that remains true even when she is 18 or 20.

When a fruit is growing on a tree - is it not best to wait till it finishes growing before taking a bite? This concept is found throughout the Bible. Not just with marriage with a woman - but also with the harvest - and even dealing with sin (Genesis 15:16 + Parable of the Weeds).

There’s no specific age for women because not all women finish their physical growth at the same age. However, by the age of 18 the majority of women are through with their growth - and if you’re in the United States that tends to be the legal age for marriage between a man and a woman. Going under 18 - at least in the United States - can get you in trouble.

An appropriate reminder as we are all law abiding here. On this matter anyway!!

 

[Otto]

Paul's letters can get people into serious trouble, because they can be difficult to understand (past her flower of youth, died to the law (of sin), etc). Peter agrees:

2 Peter 3:16
Some of Paul's comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.

But Paul would not contradict the law:

1 Corinthians 9:8
Am I expressing merely a human opinion, or does the law say the same thing?

Verse 9 - For the law of Moses says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.” Was God thinking only about oxen when he said this?

Verse 10 - Wasn’t he actually speaking to us? Yes, it was written for us, so that the one who plows and the one who threshes the grain might both expect a share of the harvest.

And he promoted the reading of the law to the churches:

1 Timothy 4:13
Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture to preaching and to teaching.

 

[Tally]

Romans chapter 7 isn't referring to the entirety of God's law. It's referring specifically to the marriage law.

Romans 7:1-2
1 Now, dear brothers and sisters—you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only while a person is living? 2 For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her.

The point Paul was making was that the divorced and scattered lost sheep of Israel - who assimilated among the gentiles - can now return to the Most High through the death and resurrection of Messiah.

-----------------------------

If the law has been nullified on the cross then the 10 commandments are thrown out the door. What the Roman judge did with Yahoshua the Messiah was not sin. He is guiltless. But the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25) calls out his sin - he was swayed by the crowd - and allowed the accusers to judge the accused:

Exodus 23:2
When you are called to testify in a dispute, do not be swayed by the crowd to twist justice.

The pharisees' committed no sin when they beared false witness:

Exodus 20:16
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Kidnapping is no longer sin - even though the law says it carries a death sentence:

Exodus 21:16
Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

Murderers walk free:

Numbers 35:30
Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

I follow the true Messiah and not a lawless counterfeit:

Luke 11:28
But He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

There was no NT when he said that. At that time when he said that - there was only the Torah, the Writings, and the Prophets. “The things nailed to the cross.” A contradiction - don’t you think?

I was told that

Romans chapter 7 isn't referring to the entirety of God's law. It's referring specifically to the marriage law.

Romans 7:1-2
1 Now, dear brothers and sisters—you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only while a person is living? 2 For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her.

The point Paul was making was that the divorced and scattered lost sheep of Israel - who assimilated among the gentiles - can now return to the Most High through the death and resurrection of Messiah.

-----------------------------

If the law has been nullified on the cross then the 10 commandments are thrown out the door. What the Roman judge did with Yahoshua the Messiah was not sin. He is guiltless. But the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25) calls out his sin - he was swayed by the crowd - and allowed the accusers to judge the accused:

Exodus 23:2
When you are called to testify in a dispute, do not be swayed by the crowd to twist justice.

The pharisees' committed no sin when they beared false witness:

Exodus 20:16
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Kidnapping is no longer sin - even though the law says it carries a death sentence:

Exodus 21:16
Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

Murderers walk free:

Numbers 35:30
Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

I follow the true Messiah and not a lawless counterfeit:

Luke 11:28
But He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

There was no NT when he said that. At that time when he said that - there was only the Torah, the Writings, and the Prophets. “The things nailed to the cross.” A contradiction - don’t you think

When a fruit is growing on a tree - is it not best to wait till it finishes growing before taking a bite? This concept is found throughout the Bible. Not just with marriage with a woman - but also with the harvest - and even dealing with sin (Genesis 15:16 + Parable of the Weeds).

There’s no specific age for women because not all women finish their physical growth at the same age. However, by the age of 18 the majority of women are through with their growth - and if you’re in the United States that tends to be the legal age for marriage between a man and a woman. Going under 18 - at least in the United States - can get you in trouble.

I'm in The Bahamas, but the U.S. laws are the same hare, I believe in and live only according to God's law, but at the same time I respect man's law to stay out of trouble.

 

[Tally]

Think about these two statements you made...

You are agreeing with others here that a father does not have authority over his daughter and her choice in men once she is an adult.
Now you are also saying that she is an adult as early as 12 years old if this is when her period begins.



The day after her period begins, she can mentally make sound decisions about what man would make a good husband for her AND act on it?? A 12 year old?

Surely after seeing it laid out like this, you would not still believe this. Yes?? No??

Her father would have a far better handle on her best husband than she would.... And that remains true even when she is 18 or 20.

An appropriate reminder as we are all law abiding here. On this matter anyway!!

Lets stay on the track we begin on, Yes, her father would have a far better handle on her best husband than she, I did not say that because they reach that stage they should get married right away, we all are law abiding here, I was asked a question about the transitional age a female becomes an adult and I give an answer to that question, I was not asked what age a female should get married, so I was not speaking on that topic as you seams to be implying. Yes, the Scripture that I referenced mentioned marriage, but you chose to capitalize on the age of marriage rather that the transitional age from a child to an adult, yes we are all law abiding here.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

Lets stay on the track we begin on, Yes, her father would have a far better handle on her best husband than she, I did not say that because they reach that stage they should get married right away, we all are law abiding here, I was asked a question about the transitional age a female becomes an adult and I give an answer to that question, I was not asked what age a female should get married, so I was not speaking on that topic as you seams to be implying. Yes, the Scripture that I referenced mentioned marriage, but you chose to capitalize on the age of marriage rather that the transitional age from a child to an adult, yes we are all law abiding here.

Tally, bro! I was NOT trying to besmirch you in any way. I did not really think that you were trying to argue that a 12 year old should be able to leave her fathers house. I WAS trying to illustrate how the position that you and others were taking, would lead to that conclusion were man's laws not considered.

Yah's laws are the ones that I was trying to debate.

There are men here that claim that they have daughters and exercise no authority over them. It's sad really. A father's protective hand should be a blessing. It is hard to protect those that you have no authority over.

 

[Tally]

Tally, bro! I was NOT trying to besmirch you in any way. I did not really think that you were trying to argue that a 12 year old should be able to leave her fathers house. I WAS trying to illustrate how the position that you and others were taking, would lead to that conclusion were man's laws not considered.

Yah's laws are the ones that I was trying to debate.

There are men here that claim that they have daughters and exercise no authority over them. It's sad really. A father's protective hand should be a blessing. It is hard to protect those that you have no authority over.

Proverbs 22:6 (Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it) I believe the best way to protect our children is to teach them the law of God from the very beginning, so that by the time they reach adulthood they would of already know how to protect them selves. If we have to keep protecting our children even after they have passed the adult age, then we did not do a good enough job parenting them while they were kids, we do not need authority over anyone to teach them or to guide then, all we need is to gain their trust and their respect.

 

[MemeFan]

It starts in Genesis - the man was made in the image of YAH - and it’s the man that was created to have dominion over the earth. The man even has rulership over the women within his household.

Daughter isn't your wife. She isn't there to remain permanent.

Leviticus 19:29
You shall not permit your daughter to become a whore, lest the land fall to whoredom and the land become full of wickedness.

If the father does not have authority over his daughter - how can he keep this commandment?

You mean authority to ship daughter to household of first man who has slept with her?

That's sufficient.

The father’s children eventually do leave his household - the sons do not need the father’s permission in terms of who they choose to marry - but the daughters are expected to receive permission in marriage. Eve is the first example. Eve was given to Adam by her Father (YAH) - the Creator.

When women choose to find their own men - without seeking their father’s approval - things don’t tend to work out very well. Today women are choosing, and women are divorcing:

You didn't thought thay cause of divorces could be husband in marriage becoming unworthy to be married and refusal of husbands to impregnate wife?

 

[MemeFan]

If the man does not proceed to take her as his wife - then there is no marriage. That man treated her as a prostitute. The woman may still find another man to be her husband without fear of adultery. Adultery can’t be committed without harm to a husband. She never had a husband - she had a man that treated her as a prostitute. That’s not a husband. There is no covenant there.

The God of the Bible is the God of covenants. So his people should walk in his ways.

Prostitute is being paid. Seduction is payment free. So you telling that seducer who refuses marriage must pay woman for sex act.

 

[Otto]

Prostitute is being paid. Seduction is payment free. So you telling that seducer who refuses marriage must pay woman for sex act.

Sons of Jacob - the father of Israel:

Genesis 34:31
“But why should we let him treat our sister like a prostitute?” they retorted angrily.

Just because there is no exchange of money (currency in our generation) - doesn’t mean that it’s not prostitution. It could be an exchange for dinner, gifts, or simply pleasure. Sex without covenant is always prostitution. Go through the Bible - that’s what you’ll see it labeled as.

Hosea 4:14
I will not punish your daughters when they prostitute themselves, nor your daughters-in-law when they commit adultery. For the men themselves go off with prostitutes and offer sacrifices with shrine prostitutes. So a people without understanding will come to ruin.

If fathers taught this to their daughters - they wouldn’t be sleeping around with little boys in the first place. They wouldn’t fool around with boys that regard them as prostitutes - but instead - men that wish to enter into life long covenants with - imitating the Father in Heaven.

 

[Tally]

Daughter isn't your wife. She isn't there to remain permanent.


You mean authority to ship daughter to household of first man who has slept with her?

That's sufficient.



You didn't thought thay cause of divorces could be husband in marriage becoming unworthy to be married and refusal of husbands to impregnate wife?

I believe the divorce can be the result of the man and woman not putting God first when seeking a spouse, proverbs 18:22 kjv (whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord) A wife is a good thing for a husband, so there should not be need for a divorce if both persons are believers. 2Corinthians 6:14 (Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness.) Proverbs 6:27 kjv (Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his cloths not be burned?)

 

[Mark C]

... Jesus Christ died to set us free all bondage of the laws in the old testament, ...

Wrong. Deadly wrong. Read Matthew 5:17 through 19 and ask yourself whether the Messiah is a Liar, or some translator is.

Otto has given more background, just for starters. I contend, however, that "the Law is done away with," is the biggest lie in all human history, surpassing even the first two in Genesis 3.

Beyond that, any actual further discussion is probably Verbotten. Sorry - but you're welcome to ask privately if you want.