Are you married, or are you committing adultery?

[Man_in_the_Middle]

Maybe my cup has already been filled so I'm trying to empty it that I can understand clearly. Hebrews 10:4 (for it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins) I understand that scripture is saying that only the blood sacrifice of our Lod and savior Jesus Christ is able to wash man sins away. Please correct me if I'm wrong, are you saying the righteous men of God befor Christ, sins was already washed away because God called them righteous due to their faith and sacrifice?

Otto may provide his own understanding but I would like to chime in here.

Scripture is true. So when we read that the sin has been forgiven, we have to accept that the sin was indeed forgiven.

Lev_4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
Lev_4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_4:31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_5:13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.
Lev_5:16 And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_5:18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_6:7 And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Lev_19:22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
Then you have a NT verse saying the same thing but PRIOR to the blood of Christ being shed.
Mat_9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Here we have OT verses telling us that he will hear them in Heaven and forgive... Prior to the shedding of Christ's blood
2Ch_6:39 Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, their prayer and their supplications, and maintain their cause, and forgive thy people which have sinned against thee.
2Ch_7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

What then does Hebrews 10 mean that the blood of bulls and goat could not away with sin?

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

These first two verses inform us that the sacrifices do not perfect the people because if they were perfected, they would stop needing to do sin sacrifices... Why? Because if they never sinned again, they would never need to get forgiveness of sin again.

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

This verse 3 is often misunderstood to mean that the sins of the past were not really forgiven and simply "rolled forward". That is a false teaching not supported anywhere in scripture.

What verse 3 is really saying is that Christ is reminded every year of the sin of "X". "X" being every type of sin you can imagine. If you lied last year and was forgiven of it and then I lied this year and was forgiven of it and my friend lies never year and is forgiven of it, each year, the sin sacrifice for the sin of lying brings to remembrance, the sin of lying.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Verse 4 is also misunderstood to mean that the sin sacrifices never provided atonement. But, scripture tells us that they did.

Here is a smattering of verses that confirm that but there are many more.

Exo_29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.
Exo_29:36 And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.
Exo_29:37 Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy.
Exo_30:10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.
Exo_30:15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
Exo_30:16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
Exo_32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
Lev_1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
Lev_4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
Lev_4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_4:31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.
Lev_5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

So, what DOES verse 4 really mean?? It means that being forgiven of the sin does not STOP us from doing that sin again.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Verse 6 shows us that he has no desire that we would EVER need a sin sacrifice. Why? Because he prefers obedience over sacrifice!

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
Clearly, he prefers obedience to sin sacrifice.
So, what is the promise of the new covenant? That we will never sin again!
How do we know this?

The promise of the new covenant is that he will remember our sin no more. It is the sin sacrifices that bring sin back into remembrance and without sin, there would be no sin sacrifices. Thus, the absents of sin does away with the need for the sin sacrifice. And he will not remember it ever again.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This second part is why the NT covenant is better than the first one. Even though they are both based on the same instruction set, his instructions being written on our hearts and minds will cause us to never sin again.

This is what happens after the New Covenant is consummated at the marriage supper of the lamb that is to come. We will be given our new spirit bodies and we will never sin again.

This is a lot to read. Please take some time to meditate on it.

 

[Mark C]

Hebrews 10:4 (for it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins) I understand that scripture is saying that only the blood sacrifice of our Lod and savior Jesus Christ is able to wash man sins away. Please correct me if I'm wrong

This conflation becomes much more clear if one understands the English word that is missing, and why. And it requires some connections that don't get taught. But once you see it, the pieces fit, and "it can't be UN-SEEN."

There is a difference between "unintentional sin" and things that are "deliberate," and are thus "intentional REBELLION to YHVH." The most obvious place to see that pattern, although it is consistent, is to read Leviticus chapter 4 -- all of it.

The pattern is that a cohen ('priest') -- or a ruler (or 'prince') -- or the entirety of the assembly ('kol edat,' or the 'cahal') can sin UNINTENTIONALLY, or "through ignorance." In each of those cases there is a remedy prescribed - offerings, and/or recompense (when a person is injured as a result) and/or 'korbon' or sacrifice. They are NOT all the same, and the differences are important. And - consider this: You can only claim ignorance of a particular issue - ONCE; after that, it's no long "in ignorance."

But notice what is MISSING.

There is no [explicit!] instruction about what must be done when some "sin" is not through ignorance, or "accidental," "unintentional," or just - oops! What is NOT described in any of those "blood of bulls and goats" remedies is:

what if some man, or priest, or prince, or 'all the people' sin, not by accident, but by deliberate, intentional, conscious, knowing REBELLION to YHVH!?

"Yeah - you said don't eat that fruit - I did. I ate it! On purpose! And I knew better!" And - yeah, murder, rape, idolatry...and on and on...

What THEN?

There is NO ritual, no offering, no sacrifice prescribed EXPLICITLY for deliberate rebellion to YHVH.

"It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away intentional sin..."

So then what?

Turns out that is what the Rest of the Whole Book is about. And why.

 

[Mark C]

Mathew 5:48 (Be ye therefore PERFECT,even as your father which us in heaven is PERFECT)...
...my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a PERFECT and an upright man). Please explain.

The problem most English translations have is the word "perfect" - which does NOT mean precisely what some think it does, "utterly without any flaw whatsoever," or similar.

The original Hebrew word is "tamim" (used almost 100 times) is often rendered "perfect" - but a better and more frequent translation in most cases (including the first use, in Genesis 6:9, that Noach was '"complete or whole" in his generations' almost certainly means that his bloodline was not tainted, as by Nephilim DNA. "Without blemish," or 'sound' or 'entire' or 'complete' are also used.

This is a good place to try a word search on 'tamim' with the BLB, or E-sword, etc. (Start w. Genesis 6:9 if that's easier.) See how it's used in those other places.

"Be perfect as I AM perfect," is an oft-noted reference, repeated multiple times.

The way I prefer to explain the idea of 'tamim' is that of a legal-language understanding: "fit for the intended purpose." If you buy a product, that is what you should expect - that it works properly for what you thought it was made to do.

We are "tamim" - and should be! - because He made us to be 'fit for the purpose' He intended.

"The torah [instruction, better than 'law'] of YHVH is tamim" is another. It is whole, complete. And complete, ideal for His intended purpose.

Yahushua in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 isn't say you can never make a mistake, or don't have a scar somewhere, just that you Father did not make junk. WHATEVER His purpose for you in this life - know that He made you fit for His purpose to do it.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I’m sorry, where is the Scripture about stealing being ok if the man can’t block someone from taking from him?
I’m sure that you have quoted it multiple times, but please humor me.

Where is it in scripture that taking a wife without the father’s consent is stealing? That’s my entire point. This isn’t a concept I see in scripture; the frankly ridiculous idea that a father owns his daughter.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Thank you! Something concrete.

If the man does not proceed to take her as his wife - then there is no marriage. That man treated her as a prostitute

This directly contradicts scripture which tells us that you do form a one flesh when you lie with a harlot. Treating a woman like a prostitute still makes her your wife. So your whole argument is completely collapsed with this one contradiction.

The woman may still find another man to be her husband without fear of adultery.

Why? She has a valid one flesh. Why can she form another one while the first still exists? Why isn’t this adultery? Remember, even mid you lie with a harlot you form a one flesh and one flesh is the opposite of a divorce; i.e. a marriage.

Adultery can’t be committed without harm to a husband

You’re going to have explain this one to me.

She never had a husband

She has a valid one flesh, so she has a husband.

There is no covenant there

There is no covenant connected to any marriage anywhere in all of scripture and no; Isaac and Rebecca did not have a covenant unless you think fathers can form covenants for their adult sons.

Your belief has scripture contradicting scripture. By starting with a controlling verse that try and force all other verse to submit to, you end up invalidating all of scripture. You have to say that some verses are wrong.

Instead you have to come up with the explanation that reconciles all the relevant verses. Paul has to be correct when he says that lying with a harlot forms one flesh and Moses has to be right when he says that a father is owed a bride price in certain situations.

Your options for achieving this are very limited. Your attempts so far have fallen far short of the goal.

 

[Tally]

Otto may provide his own understanding but I would like to chime in here.

Scripture is true. So when we read that the sin has been forgiven, we have to accept that the sin was indeed forgiven.

Lev_4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
Lev_4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_4:31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_5:13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.
Lev_5:16 And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_5:18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_6:7 And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Lev_19:22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
Then you have a NT verse saying the same thing but PRIOR to the blood of Christ being shed.
Mat_9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Here we have OT verses telling us that he will hear them in Heaven and forgive... Prior to the shedding of Christ's blood
2Ch_6:39 Then hear thou from the heavens, even from thy dwelling place, their prayer and their supplications, and maintain their cause, and forgive thy people which have sinned against thee.
2Ch_7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

What then does Hebrews 10 mean that the blood of bulls and goat could not away with sin?

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

These first two verses inform us that the sacrifices do not perfect the people because if they were perfected, they would stop needing to do sin sacrifices... Why? Because if they never sinned again, they would never need to get forgiveness of sin again.

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

This verse 3 is often misunderstood to mean that the sins of the past were not really forgiven and simply "rolled forward". That is a false teaching not supported anywhere in scripture.

What verse 3 is really saying is that Christ is reminded every year of the sin of "X". "X" being every type of sin you can imagine. If you lied last year and was forgiven of it and then I lied this year and was forgiven of it and my friend lies never year and is forgiven of it, each year, the sin sacrifice for the sin of lying brings to remembrance, the sin of lying.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Verse 4 is also misunderstood to mean that the sin sacrifices never provided atonement. But, scripture tells us that they did.

Here is a smattering of verses that confirm that but there are many more.

Exo_29:33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.
Exo_29:36 And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.
Exo_29:37 Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy.
Exo_30:10 And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.
Exo_30:15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
Exo_30:16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
Exo_32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
Lev_1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
Lev_4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
Lev_4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_4:31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev_5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.
Lev_5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

So, what DOES verse 4 really mean?? It means that being forgiven of the sin does not STOP us from doing that sin again.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Verse 6 shows us that he has no desire that we would EVER need a sin sacrifice. Why? Because he prefers obedience over sacrifice!

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
Clearly, he prefers obedience to sin sacrifice.
So, what is the promise of the new covenant? That we will never sin again!
How do we know this?

The promise of the new covenant is that he will remember our sin no more. It is the sin sacrifices that bring sin back into remembrance and without sin, there would be no sin sacrifices. Thus, the absents of sin does away with the need for the sin sacrifice. And he will not remember it ever again.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This second part is why the NT covenant is better than the first one. Even though they are both based on the same instruction set, his instructions being written on our hearts and minds will cause us to never sin again.

This is what happens after the New Covenant is consummated at the marriage supper of the lamb that is to come. We will be given our new spirit bodies and we will never sin again.

This is a lot to read. Please take some time to meditate on it.

I do agree that if the bible say it then it is as the bible say, I will study all of it carefully, and look to the Holy Spirit for complete understanding, I appreciate it much, thank you.

 

[Tally]

The problem most English translations have is the word "perfect" - which does NOT mean precisely what some think it does, "utterly without any flaw whatsoever," or similar.

The original Hebrew word is "tamim" (used almost 100 times) is often rendered "perfect" - but a better and more frequent translation in most cases (including the first use, in Genesis 6:9, that Noach was '"complete or whole" in his generations' almost certainly means that his bloodline was not tainted, as by Nephilim DNA. "Without blemish," or 'sound' or 'entire' or 'complete' are also used.

This is a good place to try a word search on 'tamim' with the BLB, or E-sword, etc. (Start w. Genesis 6:9 if that's easier.) See how it's used in those other places.

"Be perfect as I AM perfect," is an oft-noted reference, repeated multiple times.

The way I prefer to explain the idea of 'tamim' is that of a legal-language understanding: "fit for the intended purpose." If you buy a product, that is what you should expect - that it works properly for what you thought it was made to do.

We are "tamim" - and should be! - because He made us to be 'fit for the purpose' He intended.

"The torah [instruction, better than 'law'] of YHVH is tamim" is another. It is whole, complete. And complete, ideal for His intended purpose.

Yahushua in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 isn't say you can never make a mistake, or don't have a scar somewhere, just that you Father did not make junk. WHATEVER His purpose for you in this life - know that He made you fit for His purpose to do it.

I can't agree with your explanation at this point but I will think more on it

 

[Mark C]

That's why I suggest the tools.

 

[Mojo]

The problem most English translations have is the word "perfect" - which does NOT mean precisely what some think it does, "utterly without any flaw whatsoever," or similar.

The original Hebrew word is "tamim" (used almost 100 times) is often rendered "perfect" - but a better and more frequent translation in most cases (including the first use, in Genesis 6:9, that Noach was '"complete or whole" in his generations' almost certainly means that his bloodline was not tainted, as by Nephilim DNA. "Without blemish," or 'sound' or 'entire' or 'complete' are also used.

This is a good place to try a word search on 'tamim' with the BLB, or E-sword, etc. (Start w. Genesis 6:9 if that's easier.) See how it's used in those other places.

"Be perfect as I AM perfect," is an oft-noted reference, repeated multiple times.

The way I prefer to explain the idea of 'tamim' is that of a legal-language understanding: "fit for the intended purpose." If you buy a product, that is what you should expect - that it works properly for what you thought it was made to do.

We are "tamim" - and should be! - because He made us to be 'fit for the purpose' He intended.

"The torah [instruction, better than 'law'] of YHVH is tamim" is another. It is whole, complete. And complete, ideal for His intended purpose.

Yahushua in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5 isn't say you can never make a mistake, or don't have a scar somewhere, just that you Father did not make junk. WHATEVER His purpose for you in this life - know that He made you fit for His purpose to do it.

I’m not a language expert, so I can only mostly agree without expertise in the language.

However, my application of the term “perfect” is likened unto a master craftsman. A master craftsman has been trained, shaped and molded for his trade. He can be relied upon to perform his tasks with precision and consistency. He is not prone to making errors in his craft, but they do occur from time to time and he knows how to correct them.

Perfect doesn’t mean without error, it just means mature and well trained.

That’s been my go to analogy.

 

[Tally]

I’m not a language expert, so I can only mostly agree without expertise in the language.

However, my application of the term “perfect” is likened unto a master craftsman. A master craftsman has been trained, shaped and molded for his trade. He can be relied upon to perform his tasks with precision and consistency. He is not prone to making errors in his craft, but they do occur from time to time and he knows how to correct them.

Perfect doesn’t mean without error, it just means mature and well trained.

That’s been my go to analogy.

Lol! Point well taken my brother.

 

[Tally]

This conflation becomes much more clear if one understands the English word that is missing, and why. And it requires some connections that don't get taught. But once you see it, the pieces fit, and "it can't be UN-SEEN."

There is a difference between "unintentional sin" and things that are "deliberate," and are thus "intentional REBELLION to YHVH." The most obvious place to see that pattern, although it is consistent, is to read Leviticus chapter 4 -- all of it.

The pattern is that a cohen ('priest') -- or a ruler (or 'prince') -- or the entirety of the assembly ('kol edat,' or the 'cahal') can sin UNINTENTIONALLY, or "through ignorance." In each of those cases there is a remedy prescribed - offerings, and/or recompense (when a person is injured as a result) and/or 'korbon' or sacrifice. They are NOT all the same, and the differences are important. And - consider this: You can only claim ignorance of a particular issue - ONCE; after that, it's no long "in ignorance."

But notice what is MISSING.

There is no [explicit!] instruction about what must be done when some "sin" is not through ignorance, or "accidental," "unintentional," or just - oops! What is NOT described in any of those "blood of bulls and goats" remedies is:

what if some man, or priest, or prince, or 'all the people' sin, not by accident, but by deliberate, intentional, conscious, knowing REBELLION to YHVH!?

"Yeah - you said don't eat that fruit - I did. I ate it! On purpose! And I knew better!" And - yeah, murder, rape, idolatry...and on and on...

What THEN?

There is NO ritual, no offering, no sacrifice prescribed EXPLICITLY for deliberate rebellion to YHVH.

"It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away intentional sin..."

So then what?

Turns out that is what the Rest of the Whole Book is about. And why.

I see your point, thanks.

 

[steve]

Where is it in scripture that taking a wife without the father’s consent is stealing? That’s my entire point. This isn’t a concept I see in scripture; the frankly ridiculous idea that a father owns his daughter.

Since the word “ownership” creates such knee jerk reactions, let’s use the words “belongs to you”.
When you birth a child, you would feel that it belongs to you. If anyone tries to take it away from you, you might or might not say that they are stealing it from you. At any rate, you would not agree that they have the right to take the child from you. No one else would have the right to take it from you.
At what age does someone have the right to take your child from you?

 

[Tally]

Where is it in scripture that taking a wife without the father’s consent is stealing? That’s my entire point. This isn’t a concept I see in scripture; the frankly ridiculous idea that a father owns his daughter.

Ephesians 6:1 (children obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right) children belongs to their parents so they have a commandment to obey them, so any sin they commit will be automatically forgiven them on behalf of the commandment spoken to them, 1John 2:12(I write to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you) because children actions are mainly due to the way they were taught, but when they reach adult age they are free from that commandment and are now responsible for their only soul salvation, 1Corinthians 13:11 (when I was a child I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child, but when I become a man, I PUT AWAY childish things). Children that has become adults and are living under their parents or any other persons roof, single or married, is subject to obey the laws that govern the household set by the head of the household, but they are free to leave from under that household at anytime, and once they leave from under that household, then they are also free from the law that governs that household.

 

[steve]

but they are free to leave from under that household at anytime,

I’m going to need chapter and verse for this one.

 

[Mark C]

There is no point in arguing with Zec, Scripture has never been able to change his mind.

But, for others, this is HORRIBLY wrong, and needs correction:

There is no covenant connected to any marriage anywhere in all of scripture

Unless you count any time a woman is asked, and says 'yes' to an offer, and then seals that Covenant by being "taken" (the Hebrew root verb is 'lakach'.) It's used many times, including Genesis 24:67.

and no; Isaac and Rebecca did not have a covenant unless you think fathers can form covenants for their adult sons.

Which is ignoring the most succinct primary, and initial, such example in the whole Book. AND the concept that became "agency" in the English Common Law (aka, "power of attorney," and the Scriptural basis of what it means to "come in the Name of", and the Primary Example of a "good and faithful servant."

To 'pooh-pooh' that story as the precedent that it is, is to slap the concept of the parable in Matthew 25 (and Luke 19) in the face.

PS> And arguably, the shedding of blood (via the breaking of the hymen) is a 'blood covenant.' That's what the evidence of the 'bedsheets' is about.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Ephesians 6:1 (children obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right) children belongs to their parents so they have a commandment to obey them, so any sin they commit will be automatically forgiven them on behalf of the commandment spoken to them, 1John 2:12(I write to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you) because children actions are mainly due to the way they were taught, but when they reach adult age they are free from that commandment and are now responsible for their only soul salvation, 1Corinthians 13:11 (when I was a child I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child, but when I become a man, I PUT AWAY childish things). Children that has become adults and are living under their parents or any other persons roof, single or married, is subject to obey the laws that govern the household set by the head of the household, but they are free to leave from under that household at anytime, and once they leave from under that household, then they are also free from the law that governs that household.

So anyone we’re told to obey we belong to?

 

[The Revolting Man]

Unless you count any time a woman is asked, and says 'yes' to an offer, and then seals that Covenant by being "taken" (the Hebrew root verb is 'lakach'.) It's used many times, including Genesis 24:67

So if we count every marriage as a covenant we can claim that every marriage requires a covenant? Here we go loopedy loo, here we go loopedy la…..

 

[The Revolting Man]

PS> And arguably, the shedding of blood (via the breaking of the hymen) is a 'blood covenant.' That's what the evidence of the 'bedsheets' is about

I knew you would agree with me eventually! Sex equals marriage! Congratulations on turning towards the light!

 

[Mark C]

I knew you would agree with me eventually! Sex equals marriage! Congratulations on turning towards the light!

You score 50% on a test and give yourself an "A" - still don't understand "multiple conditions," much less "necessary but not sufficient."

Good grief.

 

[Mark C]

So anyone we’re told to obey we belong to?

No. When you AGREE TO OBEY. (That might sound like "covenant" to folks with ears to hear.

Do you not know?

"Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey..." Romans 6:16