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Exodus 22:16-17: "pre-marital sex" = the beginning of marriage?

MeganC said:
Prisons protect the law abiding from the outlaws. So does the death penalty.

As far as restorative justice goes, NO.

There is no restoring murder victims, rape victims, victims of drunk drivers, and etc. All that can be done is to end the offender and relieve the victims of worrying about the SOB ever getting loose and coming after them.

No kidding, when I heard my father had died in prison I cried because I felt relief. I didn't give one single **** about him. Not at all. I was relieved that I never had to worry about him again.

And there was NOTHING he could have done to "restore" me.
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I'm talking about restoring of social relationship. Read whole text, not half and start imagining what isn't written.

Prisons by themselves are unjust. Who pays for imprisonment? Victim. So victim suffers twice which isn't OK.

Sadly, but you must realize you issues with father is, in one part, caused by US legal system. What was incentive for him to have new decent relationship with you? None, because everything is locking people and punishing them.
 
MemeFan said:
Sadly, but you must realize you issues with father is, in one part, caused by US legal system. What was incentive for him to have new decent relationship with you? None, because everything is locking people and punishing them.
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Looks like I need to take another break.
 
MeganC said:
Looks like I need to take another break.
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Please don’t let his lack of awareness bother you.

@MemeFan , you done been clueless once again and if you had a smidgen of wisdom you would apologize.
 
steve said:
Please don’t let his lack of awareness bother you.

@MemeFan , you done been clueless once again and if you had a smidgen of wisdom you would apologize.
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For what?

Telling uncomfortable truth.

I totally understand @MeganC's father is, according to her, total garbage of man. I understand why she doesn't want to have any contact with him.

I have meet similar people whom I'm happy to never meet again.

But fundamental reality is that having good father would be way better for @MeganC than whatever she has experienced. Even if good fatherhood has come late. This is truth and reality.

Even if somebody is piece of crap, you are still better if that person fixes themselves.

I know you have children. If one of them becomes drug addict, what would you prefer? For child to stay addict who must be throw of out to stop stealing or for your child to become....."normal" again so that you can have contact with him again?

Answer is obvious. Same with @MeganC and her father.

My whole point is that legal system does nothing to improve relationship. It just puts some people in jail in order "to stop harm from jailed". And even than job it does badly.

And how putting someone in jail makes them realize they have done harm and need to apologize and do something to help victim? It does nothing. Jailed person need not to do anything for victim, since according to state and rest of you, jail is his penance.

If you be way better, if penance for theft was payment to victim.

By the way, by jailing people you cut off person's social circle amd destroy their money making opportunities. Now, for them their friends will become criminals and money making will be criminal enterprises. How is that good for society?
 
MemeFan said:
For what?

Telling uncomfortable truth.

I totally understand @MeganC's father is, according to her, total garbage of man. I understand why she doesn't want to have any contact with him.

I have meet similar people whom I'm happy to never meet again.

But fundamental reality is that having good father would be way better for @MeganC than whatever she has experienced. Even if good fatherhood has come late. This is truth and reality.

Even if somebody is piece of crap, you are still better if that person fixes themselves.

I know you have children. If one of them becomes drug addict, what would you prefer? For child to stay addict who must be throw of out to stop stealing or for your child to become....."normal" again so that you can have contact with him again?

Answer is obvious. Same with @MeganC and her father.

My whole point is that legal system does nothing to improve relationship. It just puts some people in jail in order "to stop harm from jailed". And even than job it does badly.

And how putting someone in jail makes them realize they have done harm and need to apologize and do something to help victim? It does nothing. Jailed person need not to do anything for victim, since according to state and rest of you, jail is his penance.

If you be way better, if penance for theft was payment to victim.

By the way, by jailing people you cut off person's social circle amd destroy their money making opportunities. Now, for them their friends will become criminals and money making will be criminal enterprises. How is that good for society?
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You can be uncouth, or you can choose to be a gentleman.

Uncouth individuals can get voted off the island.
 
MemeFan said:
*Old Testament Israel is anarchistic society. Maybe you should read Bible better, especially that part where Lord tried to convince Israelis how state (and king) is stupid idea.
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I view ancient Israel as a standard to emulate, before they turned to kings.

They were not an anarchy, they had very well understood instructions with quite strict penalties. They had a king, His name is Yahweh.

Nobody was unaccountable. They didn't make up their own idea of right and wrong. Every man had a judge or many judges over him.

The more respectable men, those who did well and flourished their land, they sat them in the gates of the city and made them higher judges.

The men who murdered or raped, they killed them. This is the way God wants us to live.

People seem to have this vision of stoning as a wild uncontrollable mob hurling rocks at a person running away. What it really looked like was a person standing judgment in public before well respected judges and the rest of the town. They could defend themselves, then witnesses came forth to uncover the truth.

Then the biggest men marched the guilty outside the city. Maybe some small rocks were thrown, but stoning is really about grabbing that son of a bitch by the neck and throwing him down into the pit of large boulders. Then, the good men of the city, the ones with big healthy families who all observe the good instructions for life and liberty, the same men who do good things and live well, these men all carry over large stones and small boulders and drop them on the rapists and murderers until the body is covered.

And this is well. The city flourishes. There is an understanding of accountability. To those who have, more will be given. To those who do not, because they are fools or worse, more will be taken away. If you don't work you don't eat.

Good men take many wives. The women aren't limited to slim pickings, rather they are attracted to success. There will always be more women, leading to bigger healthier families and an incredible family tree society because the bad buds are being pruned off.

I believe in Heaven and Hell. There is a price to pay. All debts come due. I believe in mercy too. A man in ancient Israel might receive leniency. They had a system for men who committed accidental manslaughter to escape unfair vengeance. They had a God-given series of instruction for maximum punishment, often capital punishment, but mercy was allowable. If the man were perhaps young, or redeemable in some way, the wise men who were at the head of the city might choose to let him live and be a slave or prisoner. Rehabilitation was a plausible option, but absolutely, certainly not guaranteed.

We need more capital punishment, not less.
 
This tawdry exchange dealing with attacking open wounds reminds me of a girlfriend I had in my mid 20s.

Her name was Eve. She was a hot mess, I'll tell you what. I remember a baffling habit she had. She would blow her whole paycheck the day she got it, then live in poverty for the next two weeks. She believed that money is evil and so would spend it all on like expensive greens, nuts, and dried berries for a couple days of salads. She wanted to live in poverty.

She was a sexual disaster. Just absolutely broken. Her father had destroyed her.

Eve slowly started telling me about the sexual abuse she received as a child from her father. He was a child rapist, the kind of man the ancient Israelites would have rightly killed. He was in prison. She wrote him and loved him, and hated him. She was a crushed, drunk, broken soul. She had turned him into an ideal, kind of an idol.

Eventually he was released from prison and sent to live with another pedo in an apartment in Seattle. They were publicly registered offenders.

Some man came and kicked in their door and shot them both dead. I don't know what happened to that shooter, but he did what the ancient Israelites would have done. It was the right thing to do. It was a massive scandal for weeks in all the papers, the lefties all chicken necking about how bad it was that these precious souls were gone.

I started dating Eve within a few months of his killing. I say killing, not murder. Murder is senseless and without reason. When she told me about her connection to him, I was already of aware of him and had been following the news about it.

Eve missed her daddy, and cried for him, and stayed broken. She hated him and loved him and had one of the most broken lives I've ever experienced. She didn't like God and didn't live well. She wasn't able to get her emotions straight, get guidance from an older man who was good, be taken in by a loving family, and heal and detach from her abuser. She couldn't find a good man who could model for her how life should be.

Instead, she was dating the worst pieces of refuse she could find, and being self-destructive with them. I hope she figured it out and found God but last I knew her life was pretty hopeless and her daddy had done that to her on purpose. Her life was ruined. Dropping large stones on men like that means there will be less of them, and that's what Yahweh says to do.

Luke 17:2
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
 
My mom is a pedo. For a lot of my life I loved her and hated her. I didn't have emotional sobriety, and I didn't have anyone to show me how to live.

Now I live this amazing, holy, fruitful life. My spiritual life is strong and my emotions are grounded. I love life and the role Yahweh is giving me.

I don't love my mom any more. I don't hate her. I finally completely broke ties with her about four months ago during one of the most powerful spiritual experience weeks of my life. I'm still journaling and reconciling the events of that week. When she dies, I won't go to her funeral or speak about her. It will just be another day.

My father too. They were both abusers. I don't think he is a pedo, but I look at the lives of my sisters and wonder. Neither of them is in my life anymore, and my children will never know them. I'm going to build a huge, healthy, emotionally-sober family which breaks all the bonds of generational sin and abuse. My kids won't be perfect or saints, but my first wife and me have the tools and knowledge to break the cycle and begin fresh lives.

It really raises the bar for any potential second wives. Who could I allow near the family I am building? My level of trust for other humans is very low. When churchianity followers slander me as some kind of horny deviant, my regular thought is "My standards are so much higher than yours."
 
Most of Europe before 1000 AD legally required a bride price.

Some time after 1000 AD - when righteousness began to disappear from the face of the world - the modern “Roman Dowry” replaced it. How’s that for perversion? The Father in Heaven says that the bridegroom pays the bride price to her father. Roman dowry says that the girl’s father pays the bridegroom. It’s still done today - who usually pays for the wedding? The girl’s family.
 
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