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God's Laws vs. the laws of men

Spandex and cotton. :eek:

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I would stay behind. You know, gun safety rules.

I should acquire several American females of conservative variety. It would be like being Gaddafi with his Amazonian bodyguard.

Sadly, I may be forced to drop virginity requirement. 🥶🥶🥶🥶

@MeganC, any feminine virtues?
 
Ezekiel 22:9-12
9 People accuse others falsely and send them to their death. You are filled with idol worshipers and people who do obscene things. 10 Men sleep with their fathers’ wives and force themselves on women who are menstruating. 11 Within your walls live men who commit adultery with their neighbors’ wives, who defile their daughters-in-law, or who rape their own sisters. 12 There are hired murderers, loan racketeers, and extortioners everywhere. They never even think of me and my commands, says the Sovereign LORD.

Before I begin - Peter says we're to pay close attention to what the prophets wrote, because they spoke with the Holy Spirit from God. (2 Peter 1:19-21).

My Question:

Where in the ten commandments is the prohibition about having sex with a woman during her period?

You mention tassels as well. Tassels (blue) are supposed to be a reminder for the church (God's People) to keep "His Commandments." Jesus (Joshua/Yahoshua) wore tassels:

Matthew 14:36
They kept begging him to let them touch just the tassel of his garment, and everyone who touched it was completely healed.
 
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@MeganC, any feminine virtues?

Do I have any feminine virtues? Is that what you're asking?

If that was your question then my answer is Not as many as some other women do.

I'm not as emotional as some women can be and I tend to be more logical and pragmatic than most women tend to be.

Consequently, I miss a lot of the subtle nuances of relationships and culture that so many others easily perceive and respond to.
 
@MeganC , in the beginning of the post, you mentioned about how the laws of the Torah are "man's laws". Just curious, what is your rationale for thinking this? There are many places in the Bible that reference the laws of the Lord being righteous and from the Lord himself, so I am just curious where the thought process that they are man's laws come from. Just wanting to fully understand where you are comeing from.
 
Myself, I separate the Laws of God from the laws of men. And some of what appears in the Bible were laws created by men. Not unlike how government agencies promulgate rules after Congress issues a law, the clerics and governments of old produced their own laws which supposedly flowed from the Ten Commandments.

...

But what of the laws of men? How do we identify them?

Myself, I posit that any of the 613 laws that has been rendered obsolete by time was a creation of men. It is not a disobedience to ignore these laws anymore than it is the act of a scofflaw to refuse to hold a red lamp in front of their car when it is being driven at night. That used to be the law in much of the USA circa 1900-1915.
Here is where it seems that you are making the assumption that a certain amount of laws in the Bible are man's laws, rather than God's laws. While I wholeheartedly agree that many of these laws no longer apply to us today (for various solid reasons), I think the narrative portions of the Torah are clear that God did indeed give these laws directly to the people of the time. Whenever God gives a law in the Torah they are scriptural dictated from the perspective of Yahweh himself, implying he was indeed the one who gave those laws.

The Talmud? As christians, I think it is very clear that these ARE man's laws, especially concerning the perverse and immoral nature of many of them. But they are not the Torah. Christian theology hilds that the Torah was truly inspired by god, written for our edification and understanding, but to a people that pre-existed us. That is where we have to understand the nuance between different types of laws to see which do and don't apply to us still today (i.e. Moral law has and always will exsist, but ceremonial/cultural laws were for a specific historical people group).

The Jewish authorities were so stuck in their stupid laws that they preferred people should needlessly suffer as opposed to receiving physical and spiritual healing through Christ Jesus, the Son of God.

Jesus spurned those laws because they did not come from God.
I'm not sure that I would say spurned, per se, as Jesus said in Matthew 5:17:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Fulfill is the key word there, as it respects the old laws themselves, while indicating a new covenant being set in place.

The Apostles followed Jesus and in Acts 5:29 they made clear that they followed the Laws of God and not the laws of men.

It follows then that in any situation where Jesus followed the Laws of God while spurning and often condemning the laws of men that He remained sinless. Breaking an unjust religious law can then be a Godly act.

I assert that God has instilled in His people a moral authority that urges us to follow a Higher Authority and to find God's Law in our hearts and not just in the law books or in the religious texts.
I partially agree with this in that God does indeed instill eternity and hearts of men, including special revelation and a personal relationship with him, but the Bible is a massively useful resource in understanding the overall will of God in that it is out basis of general revelation. Even the purest of Hearts can be lead astray, but even still, sin can still creep in by following General revelation/the law.

A la Romans 7:7-8:
What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.

There are a number of Old Testament laws that have been rendered obsolete by time.

  • We no longer wear tassels (tzitzits) on our garments.
  • We no longer concern ourselves of wearing mixed fabrics. Right now I am wearing cotton, spandex, satin, polyester, and no one cares.
  • We no longer sacrifice animals, food, or wine at temples that no longer exist.
  • We do not perform cleansing rituals partly because modern standards of hygiene and dress have obviated such practices. Most of us take a shower before worship anyway and performing a cleansing ritual would be redundant.
  • We do not slaughter Passover lambs. We do not need to even though the law was never revoked.
  • We do not circumcise male babies at birth as a rule.
  • We do not sacrifice first born animals nor do we redeem first born sons.
  • The laws regarding the treatment of slaves are ignored because we no longer have slaves.
  • We do not tie phylacteries onto our foreheads.
  • We eat pork and shellfish because we know how to safely handle them now. Bacon...mmmmmmm. :D
  • Etc.

Meanwhile laws that came from God Himself stand the test of time and obeying them reveals their validity.
I think I generally agree with this, because, even though in this community we recognize the flaws of over-reliance on tradition, tradition can also be a useful tool in helping us get closer to God. I think the fact that so many Old Testament laws have fallen away in modern Christianity is a good thing, and indicative of the truth: however, we can't simply assume that tradition in and of itsself is righteous... Take monogamy-only for example 😆

If we base our understanding of God solely on tradition, we are falling into the same pitfalls that the Catholic Church fell into and needed to be rendered by the Reformation. Yet on the other side of the juxtaposition, if we didn't adhere to Tradition at all, Christianity would likely have split up into a million different cults.

I'm just trying to say that it is a juxtaposition that we constantly need to balance while understanding the lord.

Those are some of my continued thoughts on this matter, especially where it comes to the notion that certain laws in the Bible came from Men, rather than God.
 
There is no Holy Temple. The 2nd Temple was destroyed by the gentiles - as divine judgment. Then Emperor Nero (whose name adds up to 666), and the gentiles were also judged for their persecution of the saints.

When Daniel was living in captivity in Babylon - after the destruction of the 1st Temple - he continued to keep the Torah. Obviously, it was not possible to keep the parts pertaining to sacrifice, however, that doesn’t mean they were done away with. There was a 2nd temple built. Similar today - there is no temple. But according to the prophet Ezekiel - there will be a heavenly third temple on earth - and burnt offerings will once again resume along with the return of the Kingship - through the throne of Yahudah and Messiah. But for right now:

Hosea 3:4
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an altar, and without a priesthood, and without manifestations.

Verse 5:
5 And afterward shall the children of Israel return, and shall seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall be amazed at the Lord and at his goodness in the latter days.
 
Would it be safe to assume the policy about debating Torah is because things get heated?

In comparison to polygyny being a very provable fact, Torah observance is 10 times easier to prove.

Before I respond to the stated post, where can i find the policy on debating Torah?
The policy is in place absolutely because things get heated. Unfortunately it is not a written policy. We have been unable to come up with an ironclad policy that can cover every situation. We just have to moderate as best we can.

Generally, any discussion about what you do and why you do it is going to be okay. Try and keep it tangentially connected to the topics of marriage, family and patriarchy.
 
@MeganC, any feminine virtues?
I may be taking it wrong, but I am really bothered by this question.
Could you please explain what you mean in asking it?
 
I think the narrative portions of the Torah

I did not mention Torah and I will not defend my comments as if I did.

For future reference, I never play the "So you're saying" game where someone makes up something, acts as if I said it, and then expects me to defend or to apologize for something I never said.

I'm not sure that I would say spurned

I would. Jesus went out of His way to demonstrate his contempt for the laws that served no Godly purpose. He went to a synagogue on the Sabbath with the intent to heal someone in defiance of the dried up old fools with their pointless laws. He went to the Temple and caused no end of mayhem in pointing out the hypocrisies and pointlessness of laws and customs at the Temple.

"Spurned" is the kind word.

For myself, Jesus is Who leads my thinking and judgment in this matter. I look to His example and I follow.
 
I did not mention Torah and I will not defend my comments as if I did.

For future reference, I never play the "So you're saying" game where someone makes up something, acts as if I said it, and then expects me to defend or to apologize for something I never said.

Perhaps I am not clear on where you are coming from then- would you mind clarifying?

Where I'm coming from: "Torah" specifically means "law", and they are often used interchangeably. Whenever the bible mentions the "law", it is pretty much always referring specifically to the Torah, and vice versa.

From what I gathered of your post, you were saying that certain specific laws (in the first five books of the Old Testament, aka the Torah) are indeed to be from God, but certain ones seem to be from man, rather than God. Is this accurate to your position? I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of what you're saying.

I would. Jesus went out of His way to demonstrate his contempt for the laws that served no Godly purpose. He went to a synagogue on the Sabbath with the intent to heal someone in defiance of the dried up old fools with their pointless laws. He went to the Temple and caused no end of mayhem in pointing out the hypocrisies and pointlessness of laws and customs at the Temple.

"Spurned" is the kind word.

For myself, Jesus is Who leads my thinking and judgment in this matter. I look to His example and I follow.

You have a point, but in your example, Jesus was turned to wrath in that instance because (to my knowledge) the religious leaders had set up a system of monetizing the restitution of sin, and he faulted them for turning his temple into a "den of thieves". There was no Mosaic law that caused the religious leaders to do this, it was simply their own greed.

I'm simply trying to maintain that we have to hold the old and new testaments in balance. Both theories of "continuation" and "abrogation" of the old and new covenants are too extreme by themselves. Both the old and new covenants are necessary in understanding God and how to live according to his ways, and neither can be fully understood without the other. It doesn't mean that every law that we read about in the Old Testament applies to today, or that we ignore the ultimate gospel freedom and truth of the new testament. That's all I'm saying! :)
 
Perhaps I am not clear on where you are coming from then- would you mind clarifying?

Where I'm coming from: "Torah" specifically means "law", and they are often used interchangeably. Whenever the bible mentions the "law", it is pretty much always referring specifically to the Torah, and vice versa.

From what I gathered of your post, you were saying that certain specific laws (in the first five books of the Old Testament, aka the Torah) are indeed to be from God, but certain ones seem to be from man, rather than God. Is this accurate to your position? I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of what you're saying.

What I said was:

Myself, I posit that any of the 613 laws that has been rendered obsolete by time was a creation of men.

In short, God's Laws, like God Himself, are eternal.

The laws of men, like all men, are transitory, brief, or ephemeral. The laws of men that were codified in the Mishnah prohibited healing on the Sabbath. Some interpretations allowed for life saving healing, others prohibited it.

The Mishnah was promoted as the revealed wisdom of God and on an equal standing with what Moses wrote down.

I would assert that this was a mistaken belief given that at least some of these laws were held in contempt by the deliberate acts of Jesus.

God is never partially right.
 
The laws of men, like all men, are transitory, brief, or ephemeral. The laws of men that were codified in the Mishnah prohibited healing on the Sabbath. Some interpretations allowed for life saving healing, others prohibited it.
I just realized I conflated the wrong instance of Jesus getting angry with the religious leaders- the "table flipping" incident was indeed a different instance to the one you're referring to. My bad.
The Mishnah was promoted as the revealed wisdom of God and on an equal standing with what Moses wrote down.

I would assert that this was a mistaken belief given that at least some of these laws were held in contempt by the deliberate acts of Jesus.
I must admit that I don't know much about the Mishnah. I'll do some research on that. I do know that the Mishnah is not the actual Torah, however- so, just curious: DO you believe that the Torah (the first five books of the bible that contain the law) is inspired scripture or not? That's not a leading question, I'm just curious, because traditional conservative views of Christianity hold that all cannon is the inspired word of God. Most of Christendom holds that much of the laws are no longer in effect, but it sounds to me like you are saying that some of them were never inspired from the get-go. If so, this view is interesting to me (in the most literal sense of the word, in that I am not judging it at all), I've just never heard this perspective.
God is never partially right.
🙌
 
DO you believe that the Torah (the first five books of the bible that contain the law) is inspired scripture or not?

Inspired?, to an extent, yes.

Written down, carried in oral history, and codified by fallible men? Certainly.

Keep in mind that my primary starting place here are the Ten Commandments. They are the LITERAL Word of God, written in His own Hand by Almighty God Himself. God handed these to Moses. Thousands of people examined them and found them to be of a supernatural origin. They are the real thing.

And even then men have edited and recast these ten simple laws over the millennia. :(

Yes, they have the general form they started with but the torturous translations and self-serving edits over the years have left us with various versions of the Ten Commandments. We argue and parse these things all the time due to an ambiguity that was created by the hand of man.

For myself, it is then not a stretch to consider that if men got the big stuff wrong then what did they do with the little stuff?

Call me a critic and a cynic if you will.

My point is that what is of God reveals itself in its timelessness and eternal truth.

What is of man reveals itself in its obsolescence, pointlessness, and sometimes cruelty.

Pardon me for a moment, but think of the man whose withered hand was healed by Jesus.

What kind of asshole would object to the miraculous healing of a man's hand? Especially on the Sabbath and especially in a House of God?

This is no different in our own time when people were prosecuted for using HCQ and Ivermectin to treat COVID instead of using dangerous experimental substances that the authorities promoted.

Seriously, Anthony Fauci would have made a very successful Pharisee.

Need I go on?
 
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Do I have any feminine virtues? Is that what you're asking?

If that was your question then my answer is Not as many as some other women do.

I'm not as emotional as some women can be and I tend to be more logical and pragmatic than most women tend to be.

Consequently, I miss a lot of the subtle nuances of relationships and culture that so many others easily perceive and respond to.
I tried just a little teasing and I got nice logical answer. 🙃🙃🙃
 
No where in the Torah (God’s Instructions), does it prohibit healing on the Sabbath. You can seek, but you won’t find. You will find the commandment - “Choose Life.”

The Apostles quoted the Torah throughout their letters, and they taught from the Torah. Today, we call it the “Old Testament.” They called it “The Scriptures.”

You mentioned - “Mishnah” - that is not the word of God. That is the Talmud. Christians have their own Talmud. It’s called “The Catholicism.” Jesus (Joshua/Yahoshua) kept the Torah perfectly, but he purposely broke the Talmudic laws.

The majority of Christians don’t even believe in the Ten Commandments - let alone the rest of his instructions. How many are keeping his eternal sabbath?
 
You mentioned - “Mishnah” - that is not the word of God.

Perhaps it isn't the Word of God to you, but to many people of the time of Jesus it was. For many in our current time it still is.


The Mishnah supplements, complements, clarifies and systematizes the commandments of the Torah. The Torah, for example, commands: "Remember the Sabbath day" (Ex. 20:8). The Mishnah provides this abstract commandment with a concrete form – the kiddush and havdalah rituals which mark the beginning and the ending of the Sabbath day. The Torah commands "Observe the Sabbath day" (Deut. 6:12). The Mishnah specifies 39 categories of forbidden labor which are prohibited by this commandment, subsuming dozens of other kinds of labor under these 39 headings.

The Mishnah provided the regulations which put the laws into action.
 
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