Guess I'm not welcomed

[The Revolting Man]

Funny how you're the Only One permitted to make that ridiculous claim for them.

I didn’t. They did. It’s right there in the text. Just read it, Acts 15:28 for it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials….

I’m not going out on any crazy limbs here. Those are the literal words of the text. The Holy Spirit inspired the apostles to agree in a list of the essential things that no one could add anything additional to. I’m open to hearing a different interpretation but it’s going to need to be very rigorously defended.

My follow up question would be why is it so important to you to be able to excommunicate other believers? Why do you insist on the authority to sit in judgement of other believers? Why is the faith diminished if you can’t exclude people from it?

 

[Mark C]

I didn’t. They did. It’s right there in the text. Just read it, Acts 15:28 for it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials….

It's called a "necessary but not sufficient condition." A starting point.

If you "will do well," does that mean you stay the same? Never learn? Read the REST OF THE TEXT!!!! (Already quoted, right there above, so it shouldn't be too hard.)

You would have to, honestly, be quite the Fool not to recognize that they didn't already expect certain other "burdens" - like, for example,
"do not steal," "do not murder," and "do not commit adultery," also 'just for starters.'

Are you really claiming that it they meet those starting conditions, and then murder, kill, and steal that we must "still treat them" as "Christian brothers?" Come on!

I’m not going out on any crazy limbs here.

You made an unsupportable assertion, based on no authority but your own:

If they claim Christ and and conform to Acts 15 then you have to assume that they are your Christian brother and you have to treat them as such.

You tell people, based on your 'understanding' alone - that they MUST DO things.

Then you ask asinine questions, based on a rejection of that authority to command others in accord with YOUR flawed interpretation:

My follow up question would be why is it so important to you to be able to excommunicate other believers?

Who said ANYTHING remotely even related to that?

Why is is to important to you to put words in the mouths of other believers?

Why do you insist on the authority to sit in judgement of other believers?

Who said ANYTHING remotely even related to that?

Why is is to important to you to put words in the mouths of other believers?

Why is the faith diminished if you can’t exclude people from it?

Who said ANYTHING remotely even related to that?

Why is is to important to you to put words in the mouths of other believers?


Why do you make $#!t up and then try to start arguments over crap like that?

 

[Heavens Declare]

And……?
Does that mean that fake fruit in the life of a professing Christian can’t exist?

That analogy breaks down though. It didn't exist at the time Christ was speaking about it, so he was referring to fruit that didn't look like something else.

 

[steve]

That analogy breaks down though. It didn't exist at the time Christ was speaking about it, so he was referring to fruit that didn't look like something else.

Right, but now we have an even deeper meaning for his statement.

 

[Heavens Declare]

Right, but now we have an even deeper meaning for his statement.

Be careful where you go with that.

 

[frederick]

Right, but now we have an even deeper meaning for his statement.

Yes, like the prophets of old who desired to understand salvation (cf. 1 Peter 1:10-12) we are able to search out the truth about many things from Scripture. That searching should result in an understanding of the deeper meaning, going from milk to meat. The writer of the epistle to the Hebrews reproved them for still needing to be taught when, in reality, they should have grown to be the teachers (Heb. 5:12).

 

[The Revolting Man]

It's called a "necessary but not sufficient condition." A starting point

No further burdens than those necessary things, which things if you do, you will do well. It is a starting point. And for our purposes as relates it relates to each other, it is sufficient. No other burdens can be added. That means nothing else can be required by us.

Yes, a murderer is your Christian brother. His name was Paul. And Moses. A thief went to heaven with Christ. You’re so worried about your ability to condemn others that you’re blind to the true calling.

We’re told how to treat murderers and thieves and it’s not ex-communication. Even in the Mosaic law they were still members of Israel.

 

[Mark C]

Meaningless repetition is not 'argument.'

And the personal attacks would be "moderated" if we had one. Grow up.

PS>

Yes, a murderer is your Christian brother.

Quit insulting everyone's intelligence. A murderer is not a "Christian brother" just because he claims to be, or managed to pretend well enough to get through the doors of some church. Those people who believe so are called "fools" - or just plain 'dead.' We were told to look at "fruit" by the Real Messiah for a reason.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

An unrepentant murderer is not a "Christian brother" just because ...

MY view.... Same as an unrepentant whatever....

 

[The Revolting Man]

Meaningless repetition is not 'argument.'

It’s not meaningless repetition. It bears repeating because you’re ignoring it. You only have to do four things to do well. You can’t negotiate out of that.

Quit insulting everyone's intelligence. A murderer is not a "Christian brother" just because he claims to be

I didn’t say he was your Christian brother. I said you had to treat him like your Christian brother. Like the Hebrews didn’t treat Moses after he killed the Egyptian.

Also, you absolutely can stone your Christian brother for murder. You just can’t deny that he’s your Christian brother.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

Meaningless repetition is not 'argument.'

And the personal attacks would be "moderated" if we had one. Grow up.

PS>

Quit insulting everyone's intelligence. A murderer is not a "Christian brother" just because he claims to be, or managed to pretend well enough to get through the doors of some church. Those people who believe so are called "fools" - or just plain 'dead.' We were told to look at "fruit" by the Real Messiah for a reason.

Mark, is it commanded for us to Love God? Is that a command that is no longer required? Inquiring minds want to know....

 

[Otto]

Luke 16:17
It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

Why is the adversary here but to tempt us to call the Messiah a liar?

Every single interpretation in the NT has two sides. One side that calls the Messiah a liar, and the other side that calls him true to his Word. When men are choosing the interpretation - you should cross check it by going back to Luke 16:17, and Matthew 5:18. If it fails that test - then consider an alternative interpretation.

People on here "know" there is more than interpretation, and the interpretation that is most popular is not always the correct one. Adultery is a prime example. It has been twisted. Just like other topics like food. Choose your interpretation, but go back to the Rock of all ages. He does not change.

The law was not nailed to the cross. If it was why are there still curses for disobedience? Homosexuals get AIDS. Whoredom leads to STD's.

1 Timothy 1:8
8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the righteous but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

2 Timothy 3:15
and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Gentiles can learn the Word by eating his Flesh. He is the Bread of Life. His Word begins at Genesis, and ends in Revelation. It is part of the Gospel, and part of the Good News. He condemned the religious teachers for adding and taking away. So don’t follow the example of the Pharisees. Neither did Paul or any of the Apostles if you consider alternative interpretations.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Mark, is it commanded for us to Love God? Is that a command that is no longer required? Inquiring minds want to know....

It is a command for you to love God. It is not a command for you to judge whether or not anyone else loves God enough to be in fellowship with you.

I don’t understand whats so hard about this. You all keep wanting to take instructions and commands that are for the you to observe and then appoint yourselves as judges as to whether or not other people are keeping them worthily.

That’s not your place thiugh, as clearly laid out in Acts 15. Yes, you are to love God. No, you don’t get to decide if someone else does. If they conform to Acts 15 then you are obligated to assume that they are a fellow believer. They are doing well according to a council of the apostles and you can add no further burdens to them.

 

[Mark C]

Mark, is it commanded for us to Love God? Is that a command that is no longer required? Inquiring minds want to know....

Is that a trick question, @Man_in_the_Middle?

Does "love" mean actually 'obey' - or just to claim you do - say so? If a wannabe murderer says he keeps those four minimum conditions - and Zec says we MUST believe them (regardless of Scripture, obviously) - then who are we to contradict him?

"What's LOVE got to do with it?" (And I figured it was beneath our dignity to ask questions like, do we have to "be baptized in the Name of..." - whatever - and declare anyone to be our "Lord and Savior"? I don't see that in the Four Minimum Necessary and Utterly Sufficient Commandments - er - what are they again? Why did YHVH waste SO much ink in the rest of His Book?)

If they conform to Acts 15 then you are obligated to assume that they are a fellow believer.

Let me be as clear as possible, since I am (as are you, and anyone else that believes He Wrote certain things for "our blessing") regularly accused of "deciding if someone else does" (any hypocrisy there, Zec?)

I am " obligated to assume" something?

The HELL I AM!!!!! And who are you to demand I do?

This is a parody. Zec The Almighty tells us that we are guilty of

...appoint yourselves as judges...

and "adding burders" and being heavy-handed for simply quoting Scripture and suggesting He means what He Wrote, and - heaven, forbid - "changes not," and "is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow,"
and then Makes Law and tells us what we ALL are "obligated to assume," as if that matters more than what is Written.

The Apostles agreed, after what sounds like a bitter feud, on those minimum necessary conditions, and then told us how they got there - because Moses is taught, every Sabbath, in every city. And they could - obviously - go in and learn the rest.

I rest my case.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Is that a trick question, @Man_in_the_Middle?

Does "love" mean actually 'obey' - or just to claim you do - say so? If a wannabe murderer says he keeps those four minimum conditions - and Zec says we MUST believe them (regardless of Scripture, obviously) - then who are we to contradict him?

"What's LOVE got to do with it?" (And I figured it was beneath our dignity to ask questions like, do we have to "be baptized in the Name of..." - whatever - and declare anyone to be our "Lord and Savior"? I don't see that in the Four Minimum Necessary and Utterly Sufficient Commandments - er - what are they again? Why did YHVH waste SO much ink in the rest of His Book?)



Let me be as clear as possible, since I am (as are you, and anyone else that believes He Wrote certain things for "our blessing") regularly accused of "deciding if someone else does" (any hypocrisy there, Zec?)

I am " obligated to assume" something?

The HELL I AM!!!!! And who are you to demand I do?

This is a parody. Zec The Almighty tells us that we are guilty of

and "adding burders" and being heavy-handed for simply quoting Scripture and suggesting He means what He Wrote, and - heaven, forbid - "changes not," and "is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow,"
and then Makes Law and tells us what we ALL are "obligated to assume," as if that matters more than what is Written.

The Apostles agreed, after what sounds like a bitter feud, on those minimum necessary conditions, and then told us how they got there - because Moses is taught, every Sabbath, in every city. And they could - obviously - go in and learn the rest.

I rest my case.

So just to be clear, your contention is that the decree the apostles put forth in Acts 15 is contradictory to the rest of scripture? Those four things are not the only things that we can require of others?

Remember that the part about Moses isn’t in the decree. That is contained in verses 22-29. That was what was sent out to the churches. The part about Moses was just in the discussion phase.

So you can add burdens? You can add burdens and not fall into that category im verse 24? Is that your claim?

 

[Mark C]

So just to be clear, your contention is that the decree the apostles put forth in Acts 15 is contradictory to the rest of scripture? Those four things are not the only things that we can require of others?

Do you even READ the things those of us you so hate WRITE - or do you just keep making $#!t up????

Asked, and answered, and answered. And...answered.

 

[Otto]

So just to be clear, your contention is that the decree the apostles put forth in Acts 15 is contradictory to the rest of scripture? Those four things are not the only things that we can require of others?

Remember that the part about Moses isn’t in the decree. That is contained in verses 22-29. That was what was sent out to the churches. The part about Moses was just in the discussion phase.

So you can add burdens? You can add burdens and not fall into that category im verse 24? Is that your claim?

How can you distinguish the real from the fake? Didn't the real Messiah warn of fake christs? So he must also give us the tools to discern, correct? Otherwise, what is the purpose of the warning of imitators if we don't have the tools to discern the real from the fake? That would be like throwing us to the wolves with no weapon to defend ourselves.

We have two witnesses - Luke and Matthew - both confirm that the real one is not going to change his perfect instructions. This is confirmed by Peter when he quotes Isaiah (The word of YAH remains firm forever). Conclusion? The few requirements from Acts 15 are a minimum to get into the door. The rest will come through sanctification (being washed clean by the Word of Truth), which can take years upon years.

Does Acts 15 grant authority to overthrow his Word? To create a Jesus according to the image of men, and not according to Truth? He says it himself - his ways are higher than our ways. Just like Heaven is higher than earth. Are his ways higher than our ways?

The Jesus of the world is a Jesus created from the image of men. The reason why so many people are falling for the fake Christs is because there's a lot of truth mixed in with the lies. Mixing lies with truth comes from the devil. Those are his tactics. Some of them are doing it on purpose. For many others I reckon it's simply the case of "Blind leading the blind." But people wouldn't be falling for these deceptions if they were eating his flesh, and actually believe him when he said "It's easier for Earth to pass away than the smallest iota to drop from his Torah."

 

[Mojo]

Therefore, whoever nullifies one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness far surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

@The Revolting Man

Is this somewhat of what you’re thinking?

The rascal who’s not quite cutting the mustard will still be in the kingdom.

The self righteous Pharisees who smell others’ farts to judge if they’re eating kosher or not are not exactly esteemed either?

 

[Mojo]

Gotta bring some levity to this.

Some of y’all are intense on judging the fruits of others. I agree that fruit will be evident, but looking at scripture and a passion to please our Lord with good deeds, then looking intensely at others as a way to judge if they’ve reached adequate status to be in your club seems too exhausting to me. I’ve got my own life to live and heavenly relationship to maintain. I’ve got too many beams in my own eye.

Escelato to Nacho:
“I don’t know why you always have to be judging me…”

 

[The Revolting Man]

Do you even READ the things those of us you so hate WRITE - or do you just keep making $#!t up????

Asked, and answered, and answered. And...answered.

Then you are contradicting yourself. Either you have the authority to add burdens not listed in Acts 15 or Acts 15 is not authoritative scripture.

You can’t add burdens and have the decree put forth at the council of Jerusalem be true. Those two things are mutually exclusive.