I just went through this, dealing directly with the Mark 10:11, Matthew 19:9 objection (Mike Winger's fallback):
Me:
The tyndale translation says that if a man divorces his wife and married another, he breaketh wedlock with her.
Google AI:
In the
Tyndale Bible
(specifically the 1534 revision), your statement is accurately reflected in
Mark 10:11, which reads:
"And he sayde vnto them: Whosoever putteth awaye his wyfe and maryeth another breaketh wedlocke to her warde."
Key Details of the Tyndale Translation
- Terminology: William Tyndale consistently used the phrase "breaketh wedlock" where modern translations typically use "commits adultery".
- "To her warde": This archaic expression in Tyndale's
Mark 10:11
means "against her" or "toward her," emphasizing that the man's actions are a violation of his original wife.
- Matthew 19:9: Tyndale also uses similar phrasing here: "I saye therfore vnto you whosoever putteth awaye his wyfe (except it be for fornicacion) and maryeth another breaketh wedlocke".
- Luke 16:18: In this passage, Tyndale translates it as: "Whosoever putteth awaye his wyfe and marieth another breaketh wedlocke".
Tyndale’s choice of "breaketh wedlock" was a literal translation of the concept of adultery, emphasizing the breaking of the marriage covenant rather than just the sexual act itself.
translation.bible +1
Would you like to compare how
Tyndale's translation of these verses differs from the later
King James Version?
7 sites
- Mark 10:11 - Tyndale - Study Bible
Mark 10:11. Tyndale(i) 11 And he sayde vnto them: Whosoever putteth awaye his wyfe and maryeth another breaketh wedlocke to her wa...
StudyBible.info
- “Against Her” or “With Her” in Mark 10.11?
Jul 2, 2024 — * BT Vol. 63, No. 1: 52-57. 52. * “AgAINST HER” OR “WITH HER” IN mARK 10.11? * B. WARD POWERS. ward@bwardpowers.info. the author i...
translation.bible
- Compare Translations for Matthew 19:9 - The Bible
Share * 9 And I tell you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery." Read Ma...
Bible Study Tools
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Me:
That's awful convenient to claim that he meant committing adultery. We see in Mark 10:12 that he did translate it as committing adultery when the wife does it.
Google AI:
In the 1534 edition of the
Tyndale Bible
, there is indeed a shift in terminology between Mark 10:11 and 10:12.
- Mark 10:11 (The Man): "And he sayde vnto them: Whosoever putteth awaye his wyfe and maryeth another breaketh wedlocke to her warde."
- Mark 10:12 (The Woman): "And yf a woman forsake her husband and be maryed to another she comitteth advoutrie."
Why the difference?
While it may seem "convenient" to equate the two, Tyndale’s choice likely reflects the specific Greek verbs used in the original text:
- "Breaketh wedlocke" (v. 11): In the Greek text Tyndale used (Erasmus's Textus Receptus), the verb is moichātai (μοιχᾶται), followed by the phrase ep’ autēn (ἐπ’ αὐτήν), meaning "against her". Tyndale translated this as "breaketh wedlocke to her warde" to emphasize that the man is violating the specific marriage bond with his first wife.
- "Comitteth advoutrie" (v. 12): The Greek verb here is also a form of moichātai, but it stands alone without the "against him" qualifier in many early manuscripts. Tyndale used "advoutrie" (an archaic form of adultery) as a general term for the sin.
Usage in Other Passages
Tyndale did not reserve "breaketh wedlock" only for men. In other parts of his translation, he used the terms interchangeably:
- In Matthew 5:32, he writes that whoever marries a divorced woman "breaketh wedlock."
- In Exodus 20:14 (The Ten Commandments), he translates it as "Thou shalt not breake wedlocke."
Tyndale's use of "breaketh wedlock" was an attempt to provide a more descriptive English equivalent for the Greek concept of violating a marriage covenant, rather than just using the Latin-derived "adultery" every time.
These texts analyze the Greek verbs and manuscript variations that influenced Tyndale's translation of "breaketh wedlock" and "comitteth advoutrie" in Mark 10:11-12:
Mark 10 Tyndale Bible
10And in the housse his disciples axed him agayne of yt matter. 11And he sayde vnto them: Whosoever putteth awaye his wyfe and mar...
Bible Hub
Mark 10:11,12; Greek Text, Pronouns & Antecedents
Nov 10, 2003 — Thus, the man's adultery is said to be against his wife even though it was committed after he had put her away. * MARK 10:11. 1. A...
Bible Banner
“Against Her” or “With Her” in Mark 10.11?
Jul 2, 2024 — * BT Vol. 63, No. 1: 52-57. 52. * “AgAINST HER” OR “WITH HER” IN mARK 10.11? * B. WARD POWERS.
ward@bwardpowers.info. the author i...
translation.bible
William Tyndale: A Translator Tested By Fire - Anglican Compass
Oct 5, 2024 — Tyndale's translation was also controversial, and not only because it was in English. Every translation carries a theological infl...
Anglican Compass
Mark 10:12 Greek Text Analysis - Bible Hub
καὶ ἐὰν αὐτὴ ἀπολύσασα τὸν ἄνδρα αὐτῆς γαμήσῃ ἄλλον, μοιχᾶται. * Westcott and Hort 1881. καὶ ἐὰν αὐτὴ ἀπολύσασα τὸν ἄνδρα αὐτῆς γα...
Bible Hub
Mark 10:12 Greek Text Analysis - Bible Hub
Greek Texts. ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΡΚΟΝ 10:12 Greek NT: Nestle 1904. καὶ ἐὰν αὐτὴ ἀπολύσασα τὸν ἄνδρα αὐτῆς γαμήσῃ ἄλλον, μοιχᾶται. ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΡΚΟΝ 1...
Bible Hub
Are you looking at how these specific terms impacted the
legal definition of marriage in 16th-century England?
7 sites
- “Against Her” or “With Her” in Mark 10.11?
Jul 2, 2024 — * BT Vol. 63, No. 1: 52-57. 52. * “AgAINST HER” OR “WITH HER” IN mARK 10.11? * B. WARD POWERS. ward@bwardpowers.info. the author i...
translation.bible
- Mark 10:12 Greek Text Analysis - Bible Hub
Greek Texts. ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΡΚΟΝ 10:12 Greek NT: Nestle 1904. καὶ ἐὰν αὐτὴ ἀπολύσασα τὸν ἄνδρα αὐτῆς γαμήσῃ ἄλλον, μοιχᾶται. ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΡΚΟΝ 1...
Bible Hub
- Mark 10:12 Greek Text Analysis - Bible Hub
καὶ ἐὰν αὐτὴ ἀπολύσασα τὸν ἄνδρα αὐτῆς γαμήσῃ ἄλλον, μοιχᾶται. * Westcott and Hort 1881. καὶ ἐὰν αὐτὴ ἀπολύσασα τὸν ἄνδρα αὐτῆς γα...
Bible Hub
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Me:
Ep does not mean against.
Google AI:
While the Greek preposition
epi (ἐπί) literally means "on" or "upon," it is a versatile word whose meaning shifts based on its grammatical case and the surrounding context.
In
Mark 10:11,
epi is used with the
accusative case (
ep’ autēn). In this specific grammatical construction, it frequently denotes direction "toward" or "against".
Translation Insights & Perspectives +3
Does
Epi Mean "Against"?
Lexicons and scholars confirm that
epi often carries an adversarial or hostile meaning of "against" when paired with the accusative:
Translation Insights & Perspectives +1
- Adversarial Contexts: The New Testament uses epi to mean "against" in numerous places, such as a kingdom divided against (epi) itself (Mark 3:24) or children rising against (epi) parents (Mark 13:12).
- Standard Scholarship: Major Greek lexicons, including Thayer's, specifically cite Mark 10:11 as a case where epi means "against".
- Spatial "Upon": Even when translated literally as "upon," the sense in Mark 10:11 is that the man's act of adultery is "perpetrated upon" the first wife, which translates naturally to "against her" in English.
Tyndale’s "To Her Warde"
Tyndale’s phrase
"to her warde" is a 16th-century English idiom meaning
"toward her" or
"in her direction". By using this phrase, Tyndale was attempting to capture the Greek
epi + accusative precisely—indicating that the man's breach of "wedlock" (marriage) was directed specifically at his first wife.
Why the Terminology Shifts
You are right that the wording changes in verse 12. While verse 11 uses the prepositional phrase (
ep’ autēn), verse 12 typically uses the verb
commits adultery (
moichātai) without that specific "against" qualifier. Tyndale likely varied his translation to reflect these subtle differences in the Greek sentence structure he was following.
translation.bible
Do you think Tyndale’s choice to use
"breaketh wedlock" for the man and
"advoutrie" for the woman was a deliberate attempt to distinguish their roles in the eyes of his 16th-century readers?
10 sites
- Translation commentary on Mark 10:11 – TIPs
5.8 chremetizō epi 'neigh after': he cannot, however, cite any instance of Mark's using epi with the accusative meaning 'with. ' e...
Translation Insights & Perspectives
- Mark 10:11 – Page 2 – TIPs
For example, it may refer only to a man having sexual relations with another man's wife. If that is true in your language, you sho...
Translation Insights & Perspectives
- Mark 10:11 Lexicon: And He said to them, "Whoever divorces ...
Mark 10:11 Lexicon: And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; ... le...
Bible Hub
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Me:
I think other translations should have taken note of the subtle differences. It is said that they blur the difference and translate it as adultery, because it causes confusion.
Google AI:
You’ve touched on a point that biblical scholars and linguists still debate today. Many argue that modern translations do "blur" these lines by using the broad term
"adultery" for both verses, whereas Tyndale’s 1534 version preserves a specific legal and relational distinction.
Why Scholars Argue the Difference is Important
Critics of modern "standardized" translations suggest that by using the same word for both, we lose the specific nuances of the original Greek:
- Specific Victim vs. General Sin: In Mark 10:11, the phrase ep’ autēn suggests the man's act is directed against his first wife. Tyndale’s "breaketh wedlocke to her warde" (toward her) highlights that the first wife is the victim of a broken covenant.
- The Change in Verse 12: In verse 12, when describing the woman, the "against him" qualifier is often absent in the Greek text. Tyndale’s switch to "comitteth advoutrie" reflects this; he portrays the woman’s act as a state of sin (adultery) rather than a directed breach of contract against the specific husband.
- Avoiding Over-Simplification: Translators often choose "adultery" because it is a recognizable "catch-all" term that avoids confusing modern readers with 16th-century idioms. However, this can hide the fact that Jesus might have been addressing two different cultural or legal realities for men and women at the time.
The "Confusion" Argument
The reason modern versions (like the NIV or ESV) often simplify this is to maintain a "dynamic equivalence"—the idea that the
impact of the word should be clear to a modern audience who understands "adultery" as the violation of a marriage.
The Aquila Digital Community
However, for those who prefer a literal or "word-for-word" approach (like the
NASB), the loss of Tyndale’s precision is seen as a major drawback because it masks the specific
covenant-breaking aspect of the man's actions.
Do you think the distinction Tyndale made suggests that
men and women were held to different standards in the eyes of the law, or was it just a matter of more precise language?
10 sites
- A Comparative Analysis of Four Bible Versions
Page 10. 2. scholars. Publishers often laud their translations by claiming they have been written for. the clearest understanding.
The Aquila Digital Community
- What People Miss about the Bible on Marriage, Part 2
These matters of terminology made a significant difference for me when I first encountered them and considered how often they happ...
Bible Interp
- Divorce And Remarriage – “Adultery Defined” | JackExum.com
Mar 21, 2013 — The word enters the English language. No form of this word was in English translations of scripture until the Geneva Bible in 1570...
Jack Exum
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Me:
Absolutely! Never in Scripture, is a man forbidden to have more than one wife, but people reading these translations that blur the distinction, have reasoned that the only reason divorce and remarriage is adultery, is that He was indirectly saying that having two wives is adultery!
Google AI:
This perspective aligns with a significant historical and linguistic observation: in the Ancient Near Eastern and Jewish context of the Bible,
adultery was traditionally defined as a man having sexual relations with another man’s wife, not simply having multiple wives himself.
By translating Mark 10:11 as a man "breaking wedlock" specifically
against his first wife, Tyndale's 1534 version highlights a covenant violation that modern "adultery" translations often generalize.
The Argument for a "Blurred" Distinction
Those who share your view argue that modern translations obscure the original context of
polygyny (one man, multiple wives) in several ways:
- Definition of Adultery: In the Old Testament, a man taking a second wife was not considered adultery, as polygyny was a recognized practice. Adultery was strictly a violation of another man's "property" or "inheritance" rights by taking his wife.
- The "Against Her" Qualifier: In Mark 10:11, the Greek phrase ep’ autēn ("against/toward her") is unique. Scholars note that because most Jewish teachers of that era allowed polygyny, they would not have viewed marrying a second wife as adultery unless it involved an improper divorce of the first.
- Targeting the Act of "Putting Away": Many argue Jesus wasn't condemning the act of having two wives, but rather the treacherous abandonment of the first wife. By divorcing her to marry another, the man "breaks wedlock" (violates his promise) to her.
The Counter-Perspective in Modern Translation
Modern translators often use "adultery" because they believe Jesus was actually
redefining marriage back to the "one flesh" ideal of Genesis 2:24:
Desiring God +2
- The "Two" Become One: Jesus emphasizes that "the two shall become one flesh" (Mark 10:8), which many interpret as an implicit rejection of polygyny.
- Standardization: To avoid the "double standard" where men could have multiple partners but women could not, many modern versions use "adultery" to place both genders on equal moral footing.
Desiring God +3
Are you interested in exploring how other early English versions, like the
Great Bible or the
Geneva Bible, handled this specific verse compared to Tyndale?
